Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: 4L80 4x4 truck - 1st 2nd and 3rd gear shift like a clutch dump from hell

  1. #1
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41

    Angry 4L80 4x4 truck - 1st 2nd and 3rd gear shift like a clutch dump from hell

    It's a good thing I have billet 4L80E internals, 1410 driveline parts and no passengers yet because my current setup will snap necks - not in a fun way. I can't seem to figure out why my trans is shifting so aggressively like the pressures are turned all the way up or something, despite my tune commanding less aggressive patterns than factory. It's an '03 Sierra 2500 light duty, 383 LS stroker, "1000hp" built 4L80E on solid axles and 37" tires. The transmission was built by a local speed shop to handle the life of the stroker, the weight of towing, and off-road fun, but I keep wondering if there's something inside the mechanical pieces of the transmission that is overriding my "softness" of the tune?

    2 main issues I'm dealing with:
    1. 1st 2nd and 3rd gear upshifts feel like abrupt clutch dumps. very harsh. i feel like i'm going to break something sooner than later
    2. For some reason the MPH vs Throttle % is being "ignored". What I mean by that is if I command a 1>2 upshift at 15mph 37% throttle, it'll go to 20, 22, 25mph or more until I back off the throttle, and then it'll slam into 2 - for example. What am I missing on the requirements of a shift? Same thing happens in 2>3, and 3>4. Downshifts all seem fine for now.


      Edit: Forgot to attach tune.
    VE Tuning 2.0 spark tuning attempt 1 major changes.hpt
    Last edited by PRS; 07-02-2022 at 05:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by PRS View Post
    It's a good thing I have billet 4L80E internals, 1410 driveline parts and no passengers yet because my current setup will snap necks - not in a fun way. I can't seem to figure out why my trans is shifting so aggressively like the pressures are turned all the way up or something, despite my tune commanding less aggressive patterns than factory. It's an '03 Sierra 2500 light duty, 383 LS stroker, "1000hp" built 4L80E on solid axles and 37" tires. The transmission was built by a local speed shop to handle the life of the stroker, the weight of towing, and off-road fun, but I keep wondering if there's something inside the mechanical pieces of the transmission that is overriding my "softness" of the tune?

    2 main issues I'm dealing with:
    1. 1st 2nd and 3rd gear upshifts feel like abrupt clutch dumps. very harsh. i feel like i'm going to break something sooner than later
    2. For some reason the MPH vs Throttle % is being "ignored". What I mean by that is if I command a 1>2 upshift at 15mph 37% throttle, it'll go to 20, 22, 25mph or more until I back off the throttle, and then it'll slam into 2 - for example. What am I missing on the requirements of a shift? Same thing happens in 2>3, and 3>4. Downshifts all seem fine for now.


      Edit: Forgot to attach tune.
    VE Tuning 2.0 spark tuning attempt 1 major changes.hpt
    You need to know what was done to the internals.
    Can you plug in a mechanical gauge and see what your pressures are? And No I haven't looked at your tune yet.

    EDIT: I just looked at your Tune. I still think the below would be good to know.
    But comparing to a 4L80E file I have there could be some things to mellow it a little. I want to compare to the same OS

    Example
    I was helping Son in Law with an Allison. We installed some Transgo Spools and Such... It was a neck breaker. One of the spring and spool combinations specifically said "NOT recommended for a daily driver, Suggested for competition use". I missed it.
    I called Transgo and asked if they thought I could tone it down in the Tune and they said probably not.
    So out the trans came, I felt like crap.
    Last edited by dhoagland; 07-02-2022 at 08:02 PM.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Can you throw up a log?
    I think I see what you are doing, but mostly in "Normal Mode"... Are you sure your not running "Performance Mode"? I believe you can log that.

    Did you (or someone else) do the Tuning before or after the Trans build?
    Meaning the 4.88 gear ratio and I'm assuming you adjusted for 37" at the same time?
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  4. #4
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    You need to know what was done to the internals.
    Can you plug in a mechanical gauge and see what your pressures are? And No I haven't looked at your tune yet.

    EDIT: I just looked at your Tune. I still think the below would be good to know.
    But comparing to a 4L80E file I have there could be some things to mellow it a little. I want to compare to the same OS

    Example
    I was helping Son in Law with an Allison. We installed some Transgo Spools and Such... It was a neck breaker. One of the spring and spool combinations specifically said "NOT recommended for a daily driver, Suggested for competition use". I missed it.
    I called Transgo and asked if they thought I could tone it down in the Tune and they said probably not.
    So out the trans came, I felt like crap.
    Yes, we (me and the tranny builder) did that about a month or so ago. We were having a problem with too low of pressures at one time and we resolved this. Turns out the dipstick was marked incorrectly and I was wayyyy underfilled on fluid. That said, pressures are in the sweet spot or just a smidge high.


    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Can you throw up a log?
    I think I see what you are doing, but mostly in "Normal Mode"... Are you sure your not running "Performance Mode"? I believe you can log that.

    Did you (or someone else) do the Tuning before or after the Trans build?
    Meaning the 4.88 gear ratio and I'm assuming you adjusted for 37" at the same time?
    You're right. I've been 100% focused on normal mode. I don't have any Tow/Haul mode light on the dash, but I'll log that next to double check.

    I pulled the tune direct from the factory PCM and modified it to what you see. The truck has 4.88's and 37's, which were done at the same time.

  5. #5
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    One other thought....why is it that when we hook up the mechanical gauge to the test port, all pressures are higher than what HPT says is the max allowed? As in, the tune limits to high 90s, but the 1st 2nd 3rd 4th gear pressures mechanically are all 120+ and reverse is deep into the 200s?

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Is that at idle?
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  7. #7
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    We conducted idle tests as well as loaded, and the numbers I mentioned were loaded.

    Loaded meant I held firm on the brakes while jabbing the throttle pedal and holding it near stall speed of the converter.

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by PRS View Post
    We conducted idle tests as well as loaded, and the numbers I mentioned were loaded.

    Loaded meant I held firm on the brakes while jabbing the throttle pedal and holding it near stall speed of the converter.
    Got it
    I'm not real experienced with these. But what I'm use to is the base is then muntiplied by the force motor to increase based on load (Old Throttle cable back in the day)

    If ya want, try this. Don't go pound on it LOL. If it works it will be something to build on.
    In the tables you put "0" in trying to mellow shift quality I put a "1". My thinking here is if its Zero all the "-6" you have in the modifiers might not be working, complete guess..
    I also put .5 on the table below that that should further soften shift quality.
    Then I tried to match performance and Normal for pressure and timing. And yes I see your normal was quite high, thats okay just remember drive mellow
    I also put TM back to stock for now
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  9. #9
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    I'm worried that if it's something mechanical inside the transmission and I keep "tuning back" pressure via the tune to make things softer, I'll somehow start slipping clutches when not shifting - like 4th gear cruising for hours or something - just because I wanted softer shifts.

    Update: I found the paperwork from the builder and the instructions where he kept notes.

    "Separator Plate: Drill out second, third, and fourth gear feed holes to the recommended size for the desired shift firmness. For stock type shifts, leave the plate as is. For firm shifts, drill holes from 0.090 to .100 (.100 is circled). For competition usage, drill holes from .115" to .120". Drill the plate as instructed in figure 16."

    See picture attached.

    Also, on another page....

    "Pressure regulator and oil pump modifications: Remove the OEM pressure regulator spring (230) and OEM isolator pressure regulator spring (238) from the oil pump. Two pressure regulator springs are supplied in this kit. The violet spring will furnish approximately 185-190psi max line pressure, and its use is recommended for applications up to 650lb-ft. The orange (orange is circled) spring will furnish approximately 225-230 psi max line pressure, and its use is recommended for applications over 650lb-ft. Select the appropriate pressure regulator spring based on the intended application and install it into the oil pump along with the supplied purple isolator pressure regulator spring. See figure 1.



    So....I'm starting to see maybe why mechanically things are turned up after reading back thru the documents. Can I safely tune some of this back DURING SHIFTS only? Or does the pan have to come down or trans have to come out or am I just leaving this alone and getting neck braces for myself, the dogs, and my wife and kid?

    Also attached....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by PRS View Post
    I'm worried that if it's something mechanical inside the transmission and I keep "tuning back" pressure via the tune to make things softer, I'll somehow start slipping clutches when not shifting - like 4th gear cruising for hours or something - just because I wanted softer shifts Very Possible. What I did was just to see if it would work. If it does decision will need to be made. As I said best case scenario is somehow you are in performance mode and all your adjustments have been ignore

    Update: I found the paperwork from the builder and the instructions where he kept notes.

    "Separator Plate: Drill out second, third, and fourth gear feed holes to the recommended size for the desired shift firmness. For stock type shifts, leave the plate as is. For firm shifts, drill holes from 0.090 to .100 (.100 is circled). For competition usage, drill holes from .115" to .120". Drill the plate as instructed in figure 16 Do you remember what drill you used?

    See picture attached.

    Also, on another page....

    "Pressure regulator and oil pump modifications: Remove the OEM pressure regulator spring (230) and OEM isolator pressure regulator spring (238) from the oil pump. Two pressure regulator springs are supplied in this kit. The violet spring will furnish approximately 185-190psi max line pressure, and its use is recommended for applications up to 650lb-ft. The orange (orange is circled) spring will furnish approximately 225-230 psi max line pressure, and its use is recommended for applications over 650lb-ft. Select the appropriate pressure regulator spring based on the intended application and install it into the oil pump along with the supplied purple isolator pressure regulator spring. See figure 1.

    This is where I goofed up on the Allison. Went with Max pressure here, then drilled plate (the drill plate was okay once we got the right spring in) It also had upgraded shift spools than compounded this problem. All but the converter gain were okay after PSI correction


    So....I'm starting to see maybe why mechanically things are turned up after reading back thru the documents. Can I safely tune some of this back DURING SHIFTS only? Or does the pan have to come down or trans have to come out or am I just leaving this alone and getting neck braces for myself, the dogs, and my wife and kid I cant say for sure... If everything was taken to the Max it might be better to go midway on the pressure, minimum on the drilling of the plate... But that's based of of my experience with 48RE and Allision

    If the file I gave ya doesn't change anything it seems you have no choice but change internals.
    ​But please before you pull it apart get someones opinion that has been down this road.

    Also attached....
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    See above
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  12. #12
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by dhoagland View Post
    Got it
    I'm not real experienced with these. But what I'm use to is the base is then muntiplied by the force motor to increase based on load (Old Throttle cable back in the day)

    If ya want, try this. Don't go pound on it LOL. If it works it will be something to build on.
    In the tables you put "0" in trying to mellow shift quality I put a "1". My thinking here is if its Zero all the "-6" you have in the modifiers might not be working, complete guess.. PRS: I see what you're knocking on here.
    Good test/thought.

    I also put .5 on the table below that that should further soften shift quality. PRS: I see that, but the pressure multiplier being .5 will also reduce the effectiveness of the negative numbers I'm using, trying to pull back the pressure on. I'm tempted to just set the Pressure Multiplier table back to 1 for all cells, but then double the amount of psi removed. So instead of -6, go -12, see what happens. My trans oil temp will stay very stable throughout scenarios. I've over-built the trans cooling system.
    Then I tried to match performance and Normal for pressure and timing. And yes I see your normal was quite high, thats okay just remember drive mellow PRS: Good idea to take Performance out of the guesswork for now.
    I'm curious - what do you mean by "Yes i see your normal was quite high" ? What was high?



    I also put TM back to stock for now PRS: This could be useful during shifts. I'll try it.
    Outside of the quote, another thought.... many of these transmission tables reference lb-ft across the X axis, for example 1>2 shift spans from 0 to 640lb-ft of torque. I'm guessing on my engine's torque when I'm changing some of these values based on best guess when I'm out driving. It's just a forged 383, TBSS intake, CNC ported 317 heads, a Texas Speed 222/226 .550/.550 on a 111. 500lb-ft maybe? I haven't dug in yet to do any back-calculations on the airflow thru the MAF because the MAF is still disabled while I tune the VE.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by PRS; 07-02-2022 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Added photo and additional thought

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Nice Rig!!
    Your idea of 1 then increase as a test I think would be good. Because if that yields nothing I'm not sure what would, especially since the shift times have been "relaxed"

    Jumped around on YA...
    "Normal was quite high"... Referring to your shift times, compared to the stock file I saw they are raised (and dealing with what your are I would too). I just matched the performance to your adjusted normal
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  14. #14
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    @dhoagland, I applied your tune for testing purposes and it seems like we're headed in the right direction with the blended approach of shift pressures. Since I know from the mechanical aspect that my pump and force motor are allowing 2x maybe 3x the pressure during shifts, I've gotten a little nutso with removing line pressure during shifts; see attached working tune file.

    The bulk of the changes were in the shift pressures tab.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #15
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Well you are only about 1/2 the available table values so I don't see any harm in, especially if you still feel the shift "Hit"

    Another thing you can do is increase the crap out of the transmission torque management so it will pull spark during a shift to almost simulate you taking your foot off the throttle.
    I had a Ford Fiesta rental car a few years ago and just driving normally you could see an actual RPM drop on the tach during a shift, very brief, but noticeable.
    I'm assuming your not drag racing so the reduced power for the 1/2 second (or heck lets say 1 second) of the shift isn't concerning to you.

    There is a Tuner on here that does that to make his 4L60 live behind a pretty healthy engine.
    And there is another guy pretty good with 6L80E's behind 800HP cars that increases torque management.

    Anyway
    Something else to really go crazy with and see how it works.
    I believe you will find blending the two (Shift PSI Pressure Modifiers & Trans TQ MGT) could be your answer.

    Seems like you're on your way to making it work for you
    Keep us posted
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  16. #16
    Is this the Max Line Pressure DTC thing where SD mode forces maximum trans pressure?

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by curiousg7 View Post
    Is this the Max Line Pressure DTC thing where SD mode forces maximum trans pressure?
    Great question.
    I have never heard of this. I know the next generation really likes MAF due to torque model
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  18. #18
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Meridian MS
    Posts
    7,451
    Why are MAF DTCs set to No MIL Light, if you want the MAF failed?

    This OS doesn't have the 'Max Line Pressure' settings, normally they're at the Trans Diag tab.

  19. #19
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Why are MAF DTCs set to No MIL Light, if you want the MAF failed?
    Did I shoot myself in the foot somewhere?

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    890
    Quote Originally Posted by PRS View Post
    Did I shoot myself in the foot somewhere?
    If you want the MAF to fail you need to set it to MIL on first error
    I believe you can leave the SES to no. But for Tuning most leave it on, so you see the check engine you are pretty sure the MAF has failed.
    You can check it in the scanner. The important thing with this is if you have NO check engine light you are 99% sure your MAF has not failed and you are not in SD...

    I completely missed that as I had Tunnel vision on your Trans concerns.
    blindsquirrel is great at looking at the whole picture
    Attached Images Attached Images
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer