Throttle torque source: Thermal protection

[mJolnir]

Hello,
i have been tuning this jeep trackhawk and last night at a rental it was cutting the throttle like 50ft before the finish line, there is a 1500ft roll race coming and i would like to be ready for it.

i tried going into the Fuel->temperature control and maxing out the temps for component protection and COT but it made no difference.
also tried going into the Exhaust->temperature->Exhaust temp sensed MAP and moved it up and down 20% from stock values and didnt make any difference.

Any idea of how to get rid of this?

[Dusty05]

Just ran into the same issue tonight on my trx. Right before the 1/4 mile mark also. Injector pulsewidth is fine, I?m wondering if it?s trying to protect the cats.

[mJolnir]

Just ran into the same issue tonight on my trx. Right before the 1/4 mile mark also. Injector pulsewidth is fine, I?m wondering if it?s trying to protect the cats.

Apparently in the torque management->general -> temperature based tables is where you change it, but i wont be able to test it till nex friday that i have a track rental.

[jhcasey]

hello mJolnir...I have a 2022 Challenger w/ stock factory tune and very interested in what you find. I want to make sure I fully understand these temperature based tables. My tables really don't make a lot of sense. Take the EOT Max Torque table ECM 9949, for all RPMs (up to 3000 which is as high as the table goes) at 123F EOT the max torque is 966lb-ft. So here's what not making sense: the next row is at 178F, the max torque is 295lb-ft again for all RPMs listed on the table. At 178 EOT the car isn't even warmed up and the torque is limited to 295??? There is something I have got to be missing. The ECT table is almost as bad w/ torque being limited before the thermostat even opens!!! A couple of questions: Do you know if these tables are files downloaded directly from the ECM or has a human copied the file and loaded it into the software? My car was not loaded into the HPT database when I read the tune file and sent it off to HPT. I wonder if that could be part of the issue. Presently, I am waiting on HPT to notify me that I'm in the database and will re-read the tune. Second question: it is my understanding to use the last table field value if the column/row (x/y) value has been exceeded. ex. My EOT Max Torque table only goes to 3000RPM so for any condition above 3000 RPM I would use the 3000 value for the appropriate engine oil temp. Is that correct? Thanks

[mJolnir]

hello mJolnir...I have a 2022 Challenger w/ stock factory tune and very interested in what you find. I want to make sure I fully understand these temperature based tables. My tables really don't make a lot of sense. Take the EOT Max Torque table ECM 9949, for all RPMs (up to 3000 which is as high as the table goes) at 123F EOT the max torque is 966lb-ft. So here's what not making sense: the next row is at 178F, the max torque is 295lb-ft again for all RPMs listed on the table. At 178 EOT the car isn't even warmed up and the torque is limited to 295??? There is something I have got to be missing. The ECT table is almost as bad w/ torque being limited before the thermostat even opens!!! A couple of questions: Do you know if these tables are files downloaded directly from the ECM or has a human copied the file and loaded it into the software? My car was not loaded into the HPT database when I read the tune file and sent it off to HPT. I wonder if that could be part of the issue. Presently, I am waiting on HPT to notify me that I'm in the database and will re-read the tune. Second question: it is my understanding to use the last table field value if the column/row (x/y) value has been exceeded. ex. My EOT Max Torque table only goes to 3000RPM so for any condition above 3000 RPM I would use the 3000 value for the appropriate engine oil temp. Is that correct? Thanks

I dont know if that is a virtual read, as it requires you to be connected to the internet to read them. The original bin file read from the ecu has all the information, i think that what the hp tuners team does is make the software present this information to you in a way that its easy to understand, the values and the axis come from the bin file but the labels on it are added by the hp tuners team.

well you can test the effect on the table by using an extremely low number like 10 on the whole table and see what it does.

[jhcasey]

thanks...so I checked the aircharge temp for one of my passes in the 2020 challenger and compared the data to the table values. I should have seen a big drop in torque but it wasn't there. I'm not going to worry about it till I can collect some data on the 2022. I am still interested in what you find out in your testing.

[jhcasey]

Hi mJolnir...Thought I'd give an update. Talked to HPT support expert and you were correct, the HPT software just "unpacks" the data from the PCM/TCM. My car is now in the HPT database and there was no difference in the tables before and after. Hopefully I get some data logging this weekend. ECM is locked for now so will have to have the correct PIDs being logged to see what's going on. Hope you are still planning on testing tomorrow. Thanks

Went back and re-read thread. I thought I would ask if you and Dusty05 have the Throttle Torque Source in your Channels List; probably do but thought I would ask. (I see the title so you do...sorry). Something else, back on the Redeye I was looking at the tune (about a year ago) and remember that after looking at all the values, I came to the conclusion that there was really no CAT Protection in that tune. It was a case where after looking at the setpoints I couldn't determine where more fuel would ever be added. Also, seems as though some of the PCM inputs were disabled (in the stock tune). Your vehicles may be totally different but thought I would mention it.

[mJolnir]

Hi mJolnir...Thought I'd give an update. Talked to HPT support expert and you were correct, the HPT software just "unpacks" the data from the PCM/TCM. My car is now in the HPT database and there was no difference in the tables before and after. Hopefully I get some data logging this weekend. ECM is locked for now so will have to have the correct PIDs being logged to see what's going on. Hope you are still planning on testing tomorrow. Thanks

Went back and re-read thread. I thought I would ask if you and Dusty05 have the Throttle Torque Source in your Channels List; probably do but thought I would ask. (I see the title so you do...sorry). Something else, back on the Redeye I was looking at the tune (about a year ago) and remember that after looking at all the values, I came to the conclusion that there was really no CAT Protection in that tune. It was a case where after looking at the setpoints I couldn't determine where more fuel would ever be added. Also, seems as though some of the PCM inputs were disabled (in the stock tune). Your vehicles may be totally different but thought I would mention it.

Hi, i didnt get to test as it got rained, but here is the datalog from last time where it cut the throttle
pass3 thermal protection.hpl

[jhcasey]

I know just enough to be dangerous but I saw some really big torque number!!! There's definitely differences between the Trackhawk and the Redeye Challenger but from what I saw you got one heck of a vehicle. In the data I saw at the 4-5 shift 2* of KR and simultaneously the start of an injector Duty Cycle decrease. That's a which came first chicken or the egg. The injector DC kept decreasing even as the spark advance returned to normal. DC had gone from 50 to 21% when KR reached 0* and that's where the Throttle Torque Source when to Thermal Protection. The fuel pressure remained constant so it's not a fuel pump issue. Injector DC stabilized at 21% but dropped to 0 when the throttle went closed as would be expected and the Throttle Torque Source went back to Pedal. I always thought that more fuel was added for CAT protection but you chart shows the opposite. You might want to add a couple of PIDs to your Channels List if you have them like the Cat temps and I include my accelerator voltage to see what my foot is doing . I did see the throttle voltage blip to open later...I don't know if it was trying to recover or it was you. I also saw the Throttle Torque Source go to Transmission and also RPM Limit. Transmission did not affect anything since I expect the trans turbine speed bobbles was converter lockup but the RPM Limit during the 3-4 shift closed the throttle based on throttle voltage. I know nothing about the Trackhawk but from the speed I was see, it has boost. I also monitor the bypass valve voltage so I can see what's going on there. I would expect that there may be something in the tune that once you reach the Cat overtemp setpoint it goes into a Limp mode until the temp returns to an acceptable value. I am still interested in seeing if your Temp Based Torque Mgt tables do anything for the Max Engine Torque. One final thought...my Redeye would hit the RPM Limit and/or ESP routinely (like every pass). I never saw Transmission or Thermal Protection. What I did learn from my logs was that I could not trust any of the SAE PIDs and monitored sensor voltages instead. I also used the broadcast PIDs when possible (I think that's what they are called...the Green ones w/ the single arrow in the Channel List...but you guys already know that. BE SAFE

[mJolnir]

I know just enough to be dangerous but I saw some really big torque number!!! There's definitely differences between the Trackhawk and the Redeye Challenger but from what I saw you got one heck of a vehicle. In the data I saw at the 4-5 shift 2* of KR and simultaneously the start of an injector Duty Cycle decrease. That's a which came first chicken or the egg. The injector DC kept decreasing even as the spark advance returned to normal. DC had gone from 50 to 21% when KR reached 0* and that's where the Throttle Torque Source when to Thermal Protection. The fuel pressure remained constant so it's not a fuel pump issue. Injector DC stabilized at 21% but dropped to 0 when the throttle went closed as would be expected and the Throttle Torque Source went back to Pedal. I always thought that more fuel was added for CAT protection but you chart shows the opposite. You might want to add a couple of PIDs to your Channels List if you have them like the Cat temps and I include my accelerator voltage to see what my foot is doing . I did see the throttle voltage blip to open later...I don't know if it was trying to recover or it was you. I also saw the Throttle Torque Source go to Transmission and also RPM Limit. Transmission did not affect anything since I expect the trans turbine speed bobbles was converter lockup but the RPM Limit during the 3-4 shift closed the throttle based on throttle voltage. I know nothing about the Trackhawk but from the speed I was see, it has boost. I also monitor the bypass valve voltage so I can see what's going on there. I would expect that there may be something in the tune that once you reach the Cat overtemp setpoint it goes into a Limp mode until the temp returns to an acceptable value. I am still interested in seeing if your Temp Based Torque Mgt tables do anything for the Max Engine Torque. One final thought...my Redeye would hit the RPM Limit and/or ESP routinely (like every pass). I never saw Transmission or Thermal Protection. What I did learn from my logs was that I could not trust any of the SAE PIDs and monitored sensor voltages instead. I also used the broadcast PIDs when possible (I think that's what they are called...the Green ones w/ the single arrow in the Channel List...but you guys already know that. BE SAFE

What you are seeing with the fueling is the water/meth kit pushing 1500cc of pure meth thru the supercharger.

Yes the throttle was closing on the 3-4 shift i will check the cat temp pid and see if there is anything i can find.

That was a 10.5 at 128mph pass, to me its pretty quick for a full weight SUV on stock tires, im hoping i can get this solved as the roll race event is this weekend and theres no more testing time.

[jhcasey]

Hi mJoinir...sorry I didn't know the specifics of your Trackhawk but I knew something was up based on the MPH I was seeing and you didn't get a full pass before the throttle closed. Injector DC makes sense now....I was figuring you had put in an aftermarket upgrade. I'll refrain from comment in the future.
Good luck this weekend...let us know how you do.

[Dusty05]

I was told to watch manifold temp, thermal protection is most likely from that. I am running a 2.65/ati combo so I am overspinning a little bit. What combo are you running?

[mJolnir]

I was told to watch manifold temp, thermal protection is most likely from that. I am running a 2.65/ati combo so I am overspinning a little bit. What combo are you running?

9.5% lower and a 2.65 upper