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Thread: Need help idle tuning

  1. #1

    Need help idle tuning

    Hey guys im having an issue with tuning for idle on my e38 ecu 2010 camaro ss m6 with a tsp bald eagle cam and headers. idle 1.hptrunning after flashing base tune in.hpltuning for idle and bad noise.hplmpg4.hpt

    I tried using this guide https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-tuning-guide

    From what ive learned i can get the correct values needed for tuning air flow minimum, spark, and idle speed using this method. I followed the guide in turning the adaptive idle off and i got logs looking similar to the ones shown in the guide. i started with 900 rpm and also started at 22 degrees of timing in the base tables. I also increased the airflow final minimum values up to 1200rpm by 5% or 1.05. This lead to rpm climbing without throttle being pressed so i decreased both the airflow and spark tables, spark being 17 and airflow multiplied by 0.97. Even after decreasing both the rpm still climbs. Now i decreased airflow back to stock values and spark to 13. Rpm no longer climbs but is steady at 100 rpm over, so i decrease airflow below stock values. This is strange to me considering a cam would require more air. I do that and it puts the cam in the right position but rpm still fluctuates randomly. thought i had it down in a good area so i tried a lower rpm, 800. This did the same thing so i decreased both airflow and spark, spark being 6 and airflow being 5% below stock. This caused my engine to idle with minimal lope and minimal sound. However i got a reading of knock and i heard the engine make metal to metal sounds. I have the logs to my final adjustment and running. From what i understand the timing and low air is what caused the knock? Im still curious as to how i can tune this correctly without damaging it further. Engine runs fine(no noise) after flashing the stock tune in but it idles incredibly lean when off the gas according to ltft. im also confused as to how i can get 2 seperate logs on the same tune, one being incredibly lean and one being lean but less. All help and any recommendations are appreciated.

    MPG4 is the tune im running on it currently, idle 1 is the tune i ran to log for airflow and spark

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    First question, is your VVE and MAF dialed in?
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  3. #3
    no, just starting out. Should i start with vve and maf first?

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Yes
    He says at end of his opening statement that fueling is already dialed in...

    Normal progression get it started and idling on its own.
    Then dial in your fueling using your airflow models, then do your idle tuning.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  5. #5
    I'm embarrassed :\

    I remember reading that part before but skipped over it the second go around.

    any recommendations for dialing in fuel?

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    I didn't see a wideband in your channels, so you will need to tune closed loop relying on your o2 errors.
    NOTE You can not Tune wide open throttle, or high loads like this... For this you have to have a wideband.

    I know alot of guys here say start with VVE them move to MAF.
    My opinion for a beginner is to Tune MAF only to get the hang of the scanner and adjusting your MAF table. Then Move to SD (failed MAF)
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  7. #7
    so with speed density im getting -25 at startup and it decreases down to around -15. When i take some fuel out of the vve the values dont change, still -25 to -15. Im changing both the open and closed portions to the vve so im confused as to whats conflicting my data. When I decrease the fueling i multiplied the entire table from the lowest rpm to 1000 rpm by 0.9. Mind you that this is all at idle no throttle applied. trying to dial in the idle fueling before moving onto driving. Are there any adaptives i have to turn off to do this? seems like my 0mph idle is always different on fueling.SD attempt.hplSD Tune.hpt

  8. #8
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    Idk how you're doing it, but I personally just use LTFT for the normal driving around, then use my wideband data for WOT only. Just copy/paste special multiply by percentage the whole VVE table, your LTFT data till you get it closer, then do it by halves. The whole table has to somewhat blend with other cells around it, otherwise when you hit calculate coefficients, it may not even take much if any fuel out, if the surround cells are too far off from the specific areas you're trying to change. The math all has to blend in the whole table. Not to say that I'm doing it correctly either, but it works for me.
    Last edited by danmw2003; 08-02-2022 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Ok so heres how ive been doing it. Id start out with MAF and put the high rpm disable under dynamic to 100 so it runs on only maf. Id start recording the log before starting the vehicle. I let it idle for maybe 2 minutes, then i start driving. During this process stft is very rich.maf tuning starts out rich.hpl I get to my destination and pause the log to start a new one. I start driving again, making stops and touching every cell i can. Then as soon as i get back to my starting point I copy the whole table in the log and paste special to my maf curve.maf tuning runs great but at idle leans out.hpl I rinse and repeat, but still every time i start up the car after flashing in the new values it runs rich. Id like to figure out how to get that solved. If its solved by anything other than maf and SD tuning id like to know. I ended up with these values when i was finished.maf tuning good at idle and running.hpl After i finished up with MAF i moved on to SD. I kept the dynamic shut off, turned power enrichment off by setting it to 8000 on delay. dfco and cfco are shut off all the time when tuning and not tuning. COT is disabled. Finally i set the maf up to fail by setting the maf high and low frequencies to 1 and 2. This is what i got when doing the same process with logging. sd tuning stft first 1.hplsd tuning stft startup rich after driving less rich but still bad.hpl This caused my engine to run on reduced power in which i dont know how to stop. How would i tune SD with this issue? How can i get my engine not to run rich on startup? Is any of this making sense?

  10. #10
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    It runs in open loop after a reflash, and on cold start, which is using your VE tables at that time. You should dial in your VVE first IMO. I must have misunderstood your comment previously, I though you were trying to dial in your VE tables not MAF.

  11. #11
    Does it run on the old flash or the new flash because whatever i do to my vve table those values are always rich as hell

  12. #12
    Also is there anything i should start out with? I know i have to subtract around 30% of fueling to start with in the idle section(1200 and under). Is there anything else i should be doing so i dont have to drive around and get some terrible numbers to start with?

  13. #13
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    Runs on whatever change you just wrote to it. You have to make sure the MAF is failed, dynamic airflow is 8000rpm/7900rpm, and the maf dtcs set to fail of first error, to do any VVE logging and or changes. And your high and low octane spark tables need to be the same because it will use the low octane table when the MAF is failed.

  14. #14
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    Also, you want to log data below your correction temps for injector tip temp offset. On my car, over 140 degress it starts adding fuel to compensate for heat soak. So you want to be logging below that. Or whatever your tune is set at.

  15. #15
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    I'm no pro, so if someone more knowledgeable wants to step in and correct me, please do.

  16. #16
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    It probably won't let you take out 30% in a handful of cells around your idle area, because it's too large of a jump from surrounding cells. If it really is running that fat, highlight the whole vve table and multiply it by .9 it will remove 10% fuel from the whole thing. Then use the LTFT+STFT math to start dialing it in closer.

  17. #17
    Ok i will give that a try today. This is really helpful info, had no idea about the injector temp or the high low spark. Ive been logging after warming the vehicle up so id imagine my temps were over 140 degrees or whatever mine were set to. Is there any way i can use the scanner to force open loop as well so i dont have to worry about it getting into closed loop? Would setting both vve tables to the same values help at all?

  18. #18
    Also would anyone mind sharing their log? id love to see how someone logs theirs efficiently. Im currently logging using a 60mph road.

  19. #19
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    You want it in closed loop if you're going to use the fuel trims to dial in part throttle and idle. It will go into open loop on its own at cold starup, WOT or for a few minutes after a reflash. Im still working on mine but I've attached a log so you can have a reference. Mind you, I'm no pro here so dont take what Im doing or saying as gospel. 22-08-04 05-32-31.hpl

  20. #20
    So the Injector tip temp comment you made earlier actually showed me whats going on when i try to log after flashing. after i flash a normal log into the vve tables and start the car, i notice my injector temp is about 100 degrees hotter at 220. Usually the temp sits at 140. Would this cause my logs to be at -30? (fyi i logged before coming to a gas station, temp was 142, filled up, flashed log into vve, turn car on, injector temp is 220)
    Last edited by Z107; 08-04-2022 at 11:31 PM.