Retrying idle tuning, need help

[Z107]

So i have a 2010 camaro ss m6 thats cammed. The engine is entirely stock except for the cam, springs, pushrods, and trunnions. 229/242 .600"/.600" 112 LSA 109 ICL(Cam Specs). Intake is stock, exhaust is headers and back TSP, i did replace the fuel pump with a zl1 fuel pump but never set it up on the tune.

I tried SD tuning with partial throttle recently over a span of a few days, can say im royally confused with what numbers it keeps giving me, so i figured id start from scratch.

Started out by raising the base airflow minimum, shutting off dfco and cfco, disabling COT, disabled maf, disabling CEL for certain codes, and finally zeroing out injector tip temps. All of this was done in one go, the car does not like to run in SD when i dont touch the airflow. The car is already warmed up. I start the log, then the engine. The values start out rich, but move to lean after about 30 seconds. I record for another 2 minutes to see if they change again unexpectedly. So in seeing this i copy the values from the log and paste special(%half) into my vve table, i hit caulculate coefficients, add another 2% back into the whole table by typing 1.02 and hitting multiply, calculate again, apply the same table to all other vve tables, flash the tune into the vehicle, and log again. I logged the second one in the same way, 3 minutes long and idle only. The values are near the same, and the confusion continues.

The two things i can think of are: how im altering the tune, or im forgetting a value to turn off/alter.

When i go to alter a tune, i dont read the car for a fresh page, I usually just go off the last one i flashed in. If this is a problem let me know.

Heres the logs
log 1 lean 5.hpl
log 2 lean 4.hpl
stft tuning idle.hpt

If anyone can shed light as to what im doing wrong, or where i should start instead of idle, please let me know. Id love to see some sort of progress before i lose my mind

[mememe123]

I would look into injector tip temp, and cylinder air tables. They could be changing your fueling after it warms up.
Zeroing them out, making changes to idle, and adjust ITT accordingly after seemed to work for me.
I'm sure there are better ways of doing this thu.

[Alvin]

Most of this tune is stock.

There are a lot timing and fueling changes that need to be made.

Really you should be driving the car to get it in as many different situations as possible before making a tune change. I generally barely trust logs less than 10 minutes for tuning like this.

[eXo3901]

If anyone can shed light as to what im doing wrong, or where i should start instead of idle

I have not looked at your tune or logs. Just some basics from my not-expert-self.

-Cranking VE should be lowered to 80%-90%, because cam.
-Adaptive timing over/under table can be cut in half, because cam.
-Idle timing can be set around 20*.
-Make sure the HO timing table, within the actual idle area where the adaptive idle routine would operate, is set higher than the portion of your idle timing table that covers the same area. I have seen the HO timing table be a hard limit on how much timing the adaptive can add. Your OS may not do this, but if it does, the HO timing table may be limiting idle timing.
-You also want the transitions from idle timing to main timing to be smooth, blend areas of both tables as needed.
-Any negative timing values in the timing tables may be removed. I just set the negatives to 0 and blend into what isn't negative.
-A couple timing adder tables like IAT and ECT need to adjusted during tuning so they don't pull/add timing. Set to reasonable values, not all zero, you still want some safeness when things get hot.
-Anything you disable that has a threshold and hysteresis(rpm, temp, etc..), follow factory logic. Don't inverse them. Say, if something is active above 130* and deactivates above 220* and you never want it to be active, don't set the enable higher than the disable. Just raise them both to something like e-240/d-250. I have no proof this has adverse effects if set either way, but I try to respect the factory calibration logic as much as possible. Especially since there are so many other parameters that are not accessible from within HPT.
-Learn how to use filters in the scanner.
-Hope for people more familiar with E38s than me to offer advice.

Not sure if you need to change anything for the ZL1 pump, but at least verify fuel pressure at the rail is still correct with a real gauge, not a logged scanner PID. Sounds like you have it setup and actually idling decently. Next step is to tune the VVE/MAF and whatever torque things that need it first, then timing, then idle, then WOT fueling, WOT timing, and WOT torque stuff if needed, then trans(if auto and assuming stock trans). Interpolating down into the idle area after everything else is tuned may help. Obviously others will have a different order of operations, but this is what I would do.

How much did you raise base idle air? A couple g/s is ok. This is a base number. Depending on idle/return to idle quality, it should only be a little bit under where the car actually wants to idle, in terms of airflow. So, you wont know the correct airflow values until you tune the MAF/VVE stuff. The resulting airflow values that get you to your desired lambda value in those tables are your real idle airflow values. Use them to adjust your base idle table, if it even needs it, but remember it should be below the MAF/VVE values for adaptive idle to work efficiently. You want idle controlled as best as we can make it be by the actual adaptive idle routine. Setting high base numbers and raising idle for larger a cam is used to get the thing into a running(ish) state so it can be properly tuned. Those settings are generally turned back down depending on how final drive-ability is working out. There are some adaptive idle settings that may need to be adjusted for the cam change, but that's another thing I would leave until the end and only adjust as needed.

Zeroing out injector tip temp is not correct and never has been, but some OS's do come zero'ed out from the factory. Log injector tip temp and look at the stock table. Not sure where your table starts adding pw, might be around 130* and if so, filter your logs to only include data below 130* tip temp. A warm reflash only takes a few minutes for the tip temp to recalculate to normal, probably a drive around the block at minimum. Even if you DO zero out the table, you need to still filter data the same way because when the table is repopulated it'll be adding pw when warm (say, above 130*) and you'll ask why it is so rich. Once everything is tuned you can revisit this table and adjust it correctly(long sessions of closed hood idling in the sun to get the temps to rise enough to effect fueling), if needed.

You may need to adjust O2 integral delay to account for the headers since they are further away from the exhaust valve/port(not sure where the technical measurement starts). This is another "last step" fine tuning thing though and may not be required if O2s are working/switching correctly. Which they always should be and tuning is not complete until they are functioning as efficiently as factory was. Now that I think of it, kind of odd there isn't a push to add more O2 related parameters to the software. Instead, tuners are forced to hack around O2 issues instead of actually calibrating this part of the tune.

You may also apply the 2barOS if available. Not required, but it'll give you a standard VE table. Which may be easier to tune than the VVE stuff. If you do, don't forget to adjust the MAP settings and populate the VE tables, HPT sets weird values in both when the 2barOS is applied.

[Z107]

This is fantastic information, you are a king among kings. I only have a few questions

The resulting airflow values that get you to your desired lambda value in those tables are your real idle airflow values.

Would you mind explaining this a little bit more, found it a bit confusing.

The way i was logging was incorrect and i see that now. The 130* filter is a really good idea. Ill try that on my way to work tomorrow. What do you suggest i do for when temps raise above 130? Just wait for it to cool down?(My injector tip temps start adding fuel in the 140 cell, however it skips from 131* to 140* in the editor: 131* being at 0 and 140* being 0.0234)

When it comes to closed loop and open loop, would it be bad data if i recorded the stft data on startup and mixed it with the closed loop ltft data after they kick in? Im tuning straight off of my narrowbands for now until i can get a new bung for my wideband at the collector.

I definitely added too much air at start and i came to realize that yesterday. I took my stock cam tune file flashed it in and ran it with only an idle rpm adjustment. These are what im working with right now.
Restart 1.hpt
Restart Log 1.hpl

[eXo3901]

Would you mind explaining this a little bit more, found it a bit confusing.

The resulting airflow values that get you to your desired lambda value in those tables are your real idle airflow values.

The MAF/VVE tables are airflow values. The values in those tables are what the computer uses to calculate fueling/pw. So, if idling at a target of say 800rpm/50kpa needs 10g/s of airflow on the MAF table (at whatever Hz that might be) to get STFT within +/-3'ish. Then the value required to get that same STFT +/-3'ish result in the VVE table at 800rpm/50kpa would need to be 10g/s. Note the average throttle%(pick a non-SAE throttle channel) you are seeing at this stage as well. After that, idle fueling should be fine by the numbers in the scanner, but idle quality could still be shit. If you are not happy with it and all idle settings are still stock, the first place to normally adjust is base idle airflow. Increase or decrease that table a few %'s but keep the 800rpm area under 10g/s. This sets the "minimum" throttle%.

The way i was logging was incorrect and i see that now. The 130* filter is a really good idea. Ill try that on my way to work tomorrow. What do you suggest i do for when temps raise above 130? Just wait for it to cool down?(My injector tip temps start adding fuel in the 140 cell, however it skips from 131* to 140* in the editor: 131* being at 0 and 140* being 0.0234)

I would use 130*. If we assume the computer will interpolate between cells then 130* should exclude any influence this table might have. No need to wait for anything, that is what the filter is for. Flash, start, start logging then drive around the block. By the time you come back around most things should be stabilized. Hotter days might require a longer drive. The filter will only show data in your graphs when the temp is below 130*. I don't watch the scanner when driving, but I notice over time about how long it takes for things to get back to normal. So sometimes I don't start logging until a certain stop light or 10'ish minutes into driving.

When it comes to closed loop and open loop, would it be bad data if i recorded the stft data on startup and mixed it with the closed loop ltft data after they kick in? Im tuning straight off of my narrowbands for now until i can get a new bung for my wideband at the collector.

I would turn LTFT off when tuning and use STFT only, sans a wideband. I would not mix startup/closed loop data into adjustments I make, I would address those areas individually. Outside of "just getting it to start and stay running" with fuel and/or air adjustments, you'll need a wideband to tune startup as that is open-loop.

[Z107]

The MAF/VVE tables are airflow values. The values in those tables are what the computer uses to calculate fueling/pw. So, if idling at a target of say 800rpm/50kpa needs 10g/s of airflow on the MAF table (at whatever Hz that might be) to get STFT within +/-3'ish. Then the value required to get that same STFT +/-3'ish result in the VVE table at 800rpm/50kpa would need to be 10g/s. Note the average throttle%(pick a non-SAE throttle channel) you are seeing at this stage as well. After that, idle fueling should be fine by the numbers in the scanner, but idle quality could still be shit. If you are not happy with it and all idle settings are still stock, the first place to normally adjust is base idle airflow. Increase or decrease that table a few %'s but keep the 800rpm area under 10g/s. This sets the "minimum" throttle%.

This helped alot, thank you.

As i was logging today i noticed that no data was being logged. I warmed my car up this morning to operating temp. My drive is about 30 to 40 minutes and the temps stayed above 140 almost the entire time. The time i noticed it would decrease are when some throttle was applied and it would slowly go down. Temps outside where im at are in the high 80's low 90's. I dont want to try to rush the data before it hits 130 simply because it wont be a smooth pedal transition.

Im also noticing that the data i get is very off, i.e. lean cells next to rich cells. Not sure if thats normal when starting out and i just have to mold the vve or if its just bad data.
(I cannot post the log i got today through the website for some reason but it will let me post a previous one from the same tune, same problem, with the exception of ltft being active)

Restart Log 1.hpl

[mememe123]

So, on mine, e67 ctsv, I have ITT filter set to record below 140, because it stays in low-mid 130s on 90 degree + days, and my ITT starts adding fuel at 140+, I also have IAT filter set to 122 and below, for the same reason. Now keep in mind the whole rich after flash issue as well, or you'll be chasing your tail for weeks.
Lots of people are saying to drive around the block and it's all good. Idk if I have a "bastard" E67, but it literally takes an hour, on the dot or half a gas tank for my rich after flash issue to go away. WOT is relatively easy to dial in, but mid range will still be an issue, so I don't like doing "hard" runs to get past rich after flash quicklier.
Just my 2c, here. Might not apply to you.
Also, use "steady drive" filters, and filter out trans shifts if auto.

[eXo3901]

The un-smooth pedal transitions wouldn't really matter at this point because all the data is filtered out above 140 anyway. If you are confident the overall fueling is within a range that wont cause issues, it's ok to give it some gas when driving after a reflash, as you saw that lowers the ITT a little quicker in some scenarios. Obviously nothing close to WOT though. If the ITT is not dropping below 140 fast enough then you need to figure out what range the car likes to normally operate in. It will take a few logs over a few different days both warm and cold starts, various driving scenarios and no reflashing. Look them over and pick out the average ITT temps when ECT is between 190-210. You'll get an idea of where the car likes to run looking at those, I think it'll be below 140. If 90% of the temps come out to be 140-150ish, then just use 150 as your cutoff point so you filter out the excessively warm stuff. It will all be baked into your VVE/MAF corrections but the small amounts in the 140-150 range likely wont have major effects on anything anyways. If you keep showing leaner than you want when ITT is below 140, then just add a blanket 2% to everything that was tuned when ITT temps were above 140. End of the day, just being aware of the effect this table has after a reflash(and in normal operation) is half the battle when you are looking over your logs. Don't overthink it like we are doing right now, if the wideband shows 15% rich and ITT is 150+, just think of that 15% as really being 12% or something. I do not know if STFT/LTFT take ITT into account, so I can't really say that same thought process would work if you are working off STFT/LTFT removing 15%.

I took a quick peak at the "Restart Log 1" in post #7 and the STFT/LTFT show lean starting around 40-45kpa and stays that way a little higher into the RPM ranges above 45kpa ...take a look at your VVE table, there is a large drop right at 45kpa and at 2400rpm. Transitions like that are bad. See the file I attached, you want the VVE to look smooth like that, does not need to be perfect but the smoother the better. Your cam may want certain spots to be flatter and others more peaked, just depends what it wants. The table was generated with the last tune file you posted "Restart 1" in post #5 so feel free to copy that into each of your VVE tables and give it a try. I applied no error corrections to the original tune file, just popped it into excel and ran it through a formula.

You need to add Dynamic Airflow, Cylinder Airmass, Volumetric Efficiency(mg*K/kpa), Manifold Air Temp, Intake Valve Temp, and Fuel Trim Cell to your channels. You can remove a few channels as well like ambient air temp and the channels that are blank, control module voltage etc... Set all channels to the same polling rate 10ms or 20ms. Try to use NON-SAE channels whenever possible.

[Z107]

I took a quick peak at the "Restart Log 1" in post #7 and the STFT/LTFT show lean starting around 40-45kpa and stays that way a little higher into the RPM ranges above 45kpa ...take a look at your VVE table, there is a large drop right at 45kpa and at 2400rpm. Transitions like that are bad. See the file I attached, you want the VVE to look smooth like that, does not need to be perfect but the smoother the better. Your cam may want certain spots to be flatter and others more peaked, just depends what it wants. The table was generated with the last tune file you posted "Restart 1" in post #5 so feel free to copy that into each of your VVE tables and give it a try. I applied no error corrections to the original tune file, just popped it into excel and ran it through a formula.

What i noticed most with my log was my idle range, there was a large dip there and i had no idea how to compensate the rest of the table for it. I took your vve(which is fantastic by the way id love to know how you did this if possible) and i started doing some flashes with it. Seems that my cam is always requesting less fueling in the idle area. I did 2 flashes, between each all i did was copy/paste % half, then interpolate between the holes in the data, and interpolating from the data i got to the top of the graph and the side of the graph(the areas below the max rpm i logged and the max map i logged). Unsure how to get the edges of the graph aligned with the new values since interpolating leaves the 2 end values untouched, so i just smoothed the whole table.

These are what i got so far, let me know if you notice anything im doing wrong.

This is what i started with:Restart A.hpt
This is the log for it:2.hpl
This is what i changed:Restart B.hpt