Injector Timing Tool Spreadsheet Help needed for MAX effort 700 RWHP NA LS7

So I'm finally getting around to attempting a drivability SD tune with my SBE LS7 that is ~700 RWHP NA at the wheels and I'm fighting a severe bucking/surging between 1200-2000 RPM. At the suggestion of a friend I dialed back the EOIT Boudary from 520 to 540 through 2048 RPM, set the ECT to 80 and zeroed out the EOIT adder up to 2048 RPM as an experiment and it help quite a bit to smooth things oout but not all of the way obviously.

I found this enclosed spreadsheet bt unfortunately I'll fess up to being ignorant as to which field I need to scan inorder to fill out the whole spreadsheet. The enclosed spreadsheet does have my cam spec's at .006" in it. I've enclosed the latest scan driving around the block and the current VE tune which isn't finshed so it's a bit jagged still.

Thankis in advance for the help!

Complete motor specs:

• Darin Morgan 400+ intake CFM Fully Ported LSX Heads 2.250"/1.600" Ti Valves, 59cc, 309-fps peak port velocity
• 258/273 @ 0.050"; 112 + 4 LSA, installed 108.5
• 0.781" intake / 0.747" exhaust
• Isky EZ-roll SR lifters
• Smith Brothers 7/16" pushrods
• Crower shaft mount 1.8 rockers
• C5R Timing chain
• Crower adjustable cam gear
• Beck Sheet metal intake
• Nick Williams 102mm throttle body
• Injector Dynamics ID1000 injectors
• GM LS7 MAF cartridge
• 4.5" diameter inlet tubing with K&N conical filter
• 1-7/8" to 2" to 2-1/8" primaries (round port, not D-port!) Triple stepped headers
• 27" primary length with 4" diameter merge collectors
• 4" diameter head pipe with 4" diameter X-pipe
• Full 4" exhaust w/MagnaFlow 12909 3-1/2" mufflers and 3-1/2" tailpipes
• Meziere electric water pump
• ATI 10% under drive crank pulley
• 2.5 BAR E38 2006 PCM tuning

Your timing table is jacked up. Fueling looks to be off. Hard to tell with most likely your IVT affecting commanded. It is either IVT or VVE coupled with the cliff in the timing table. That will probably clear up a lot. Definitely need to up your timing in the idle regions of the HO table. Surprised that thing is even driveable.

Use Cringers EOIT assistant program and watch his videos.

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

So I'm finally getting around to attempting a drivability SD tune with my SBE LS7 that is ~700 RWHP NA at the wheels and I'm fighting a severe bucking/surging between 1200-2000 RPM. At the suggestion of a friend I dialed back the EOIT Boudary from 520 to 540 through 2048 RPM, set the ECT to 80 and zeroed out the EOIT adder up to 2048 RPM as an experiment and it help quite a bit to smooth things oout but not all of the way obviously.

I found this enclosed spreadsheet bt unfortunately I'll fess up to being ignorant as to which field I need to scan inorder to fill out the whole spreadsheet. The enclosed spreadsheet does have my cam spec's at .006" in it. I've enclosed the latest scan driving around the block and the current VE tune which isn't finshed so it's a bit jagged still.

Thankis in advance for the help!

Complete motor specs:

• Darin Morgan 400+ intake CFM Fully Ported LSX Heads 2.250"/1.600" Ti Valves, 59cc, 309-fps peak port velocity
• 258/273 @ 0.050"; 112 + 4 LSA, installed 108.5
• 0.781" intake / 0.747" exhaust
• Isky EZ-roll SR lifters
• Smith Brothers 7/16" pushrods
• Crower shaft mount 1.8 rockers
• C5R Timing chain
• Crower adjustable cam gear
• Beck Sheet metal intake
• Nick Williams 102mm throttle body
• Injector Dynamics ID1000 injectors
• GM LS7 MAF cartridge
• 4.5" diameter inlet tubing with K&N conical filter
• 1-7/8" to 2" to 2-1/8" primaries (round port, not D-port!) Triple stepped headers
• 27" primary length with 4" diameter merge collectors
• 4" diameter head pipe with 4" diameter X-pipe
• Full 4" exhaust w/MagnaFlow 12909 3-1/2" mufflers and 3-1/2" tailpipes
• Meziere electric water pump
• ATI 10% under drive crank pulley
• 2.5 BAR E38 2006 PCM tuning

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So I spent several months this Summer with an oscilloscope testing EOIT and verlon reverse engineered the BIN file. Turns out everything we thought we knew to be correct is false.

I made a video to explain everything and you can download my EOIT tool to tune. All the old spreadsheets are bunk.

https://youtu.be/FmdJOOUUqQg?si=8BhJ-m1O0-3rm5Y9

BTW a cam that big is going to buck. Even worse with a MAF. EOIT won't fix that.

Attachment 154566

Start with this lol

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Originally Posted by ns158sl

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Start with this lol

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Yeah I'm old enough to remember Q*bert too, but what does that have to do with... oh.

It's good to see after you put all that money into it your not out there standing on the loud pedal until you get the tune figured out, which obviously has a ways to go.
You put a race car engine, with a race car cam on the street, what did you expect to happen? I do believe it will get much better with changes in the timing but if you want decent street manners below 2000 rpm, your gonna have to change the cam. Think about some of the reasons why they idle race cars at 1500 to 2000 rpm and leave from a stand still at 4000 rpm!

As a test, make your ignition timing flat at 25 degrees or so, 400 rpm below idle and 1500 rpm above idle, see how that feels.

LOL Geez.

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Originally Posted by Cringer

So I spent several months this Summer with an oscilloscope testing EOIT and verlon reverse engineered the BIN file. Turns out everything we thought we knew to be correct is false.

I made a video to explain everything and you can download my EOIT tool to tune. All the old spreadsheets are bunk.

https://youtu.be/FmdJOOUUqQg?si=8BhJ-m1O0-3rm5Y9

BTW a cam that big is going to buck. Even worse with a MAF. EOIT won't fix that.

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Wow, awesome video's! Where is that EOIT tool available for download...ad you'll be getting more than coffee lol!

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Originally Posted by abc

You put a race car engine, with a race car cam on the street, what did you expect to happen? I do believe it will get much better with changes in the timing but if you want decent street manners below 2000 rpm, your gonna have to change the cam. Think about some of the reasons why they idle race cars at 1500 to 2000 rpm and leave from a stand still at 4000 rpm!

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+1.

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

Wow, awesome video's! Where is that EOIT tool available for download...ad you'll be getting more than coffee lol!

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Thanks! Each demo video I do has a link to download in the description. The above video was just regarding the new info that has come to light. The current "how to" use the EOIT tool demo video is here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viLlBZVbeag

If you do not have the .006" specs for your cam, you can use this spreadsheet I created to rough it in close enough to get you in the ballpark for tuning.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...f=true&sd=true

https://youtu.be/NvoRCCh200U?t=261

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~2200 RPM at a dead idle, an engine that's heavily rules-restricted and makes much much less than 700 HP.

That combo is designed to idle and spend all its run time between say 4500 and 8 grand. The valve train is not designed to operate from 1200-2000 rpm. It should IDLE about 1200 rpm and just completely pass 2000 RPM on its way to where its "comfort zone" is. Lugging it at 1200, 1400 rpm is not good for it.

Oiling, hard to drive small diameter clutches, are some other reason why things like that have to idle so high.

Any of you guys had the pleasure of driving something like a cup car on the dyno? It sucks.


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Some things that would help.

The fueling is still quite far off on your log.
PE is commanding a extremely rich value down low. If you should ever get into that I could imagine it starting a hell of a buck/nose over.
I'd get rid of DFCO and CFCO

The main spark table is pretty rough and at 28 degrees at heavy high RPM throttle. there is a chance that is appropiate for this. but there is a chance it's far too much too.

No, but I used to do alignments on a pro stock car and in return he would let me do a short burn out in the parking lot of the dealership I worked at. Damn near every employee would come running when they heard it fire up to come off the rack.

Just the idea that you'd build something like this and then try to iron out a "driveability issue" is absurd. There's no way this operates smoothly in normal street driving RPM range. It just won't. Between the cam specs and the intake manifold.

Everything about this is a bad idea. As far as for street operation. Sounds like a great drag race combo. I've actually built and/or tuned a few combos that are very similar. None of them were street cars.

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Originally Posted by edcmat-l1

Just the idea that you'd build something like this and then try to iron out a "driveability issue" is absurd. There's no way this operates smoothly in normal street driving RPM range. It just won't. Between the cam specs and the intake manifold.
about my set-up
Everything about this is a bad idea. As far as for street operation. Sounds like a great drag race combo. I've actually built and/or tuned a few combos that are very similar. None of them were street cars.

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LOL, it's probably good that I don't listen to the nay-sayers because just for fun, all I CHANGED was my EOIT settings and flattened the timing above idle as suggested above and the frickin car has 95% of the bucking/surge eliminated!!! I am in absolute disbielf!!! Cringer is a frickin living HPT ROCKET SCIENTIST!!! I will use his spreadsheet to dial in the EOIT and I GUARANTEE this baby is going to purr like a nasty kitten! And Cringer, you're not getting any frickin coffee...you're geting a frickin GIFT CARD!

And edcmat-l1 just for you I'm going to post a video when I'm done to show you cruisng down the road at 2200 RPM is a walk in the park lol!!! And I'm going to guess that you're also the kind of guy that recommends 2-1/2" exhaust vs 3" because of "loss of torque" with 3"....bwahahaha!!!

And yes, the frickin cam is HUGE but I FIRMLY believe tunable to a certain degree, it won't be slike stock but it will be fairly smooth! Here's the idle for those dying to know lol and that's actually a rev at the end to 6K RPM!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRLmA45yaHI

Here we go another guy gonna teach us all something..... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

LOL, it's probably good that I don't listen to the nay-sayers because just for fun, all I CHANGED was my EOIT settings and flattened the timing above idle as suggested above and the frickin car has 95% of the bucking/surge eliminated!!! I am in absolute disbielf!!! Cringer is a frickin living HPT ROCKET SCIENTIST!!! I will use his spreadsheet to dial in the EOIT and I GUARANTEE this baby is going to purr like a nasty kitten! And Cringer, you're not getting any frickin coffee...you're geting a frickin GIFT CARD!

And edcmat-l1 just for you I'm going to post a video when I'm done to show you cruisng down the road at 2200 RPM is a walk in the park lol!!! And I'm going to guess that you're also the kind of guy that recommends 2-1/2" exhaust vs 3" because of "loss of torque" with 3"....bwahahaha!!!

And yes, the frickin cam is HUGE but I FIRMLY believe tunable to a certain degree, it won't be slike stock but it will be fairly smooth! Here's the idle for those dying to know lol and that's actually a rev at the end to 6K RPM!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRLmA45yaHI

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Why don't you post a log of you chugging along at 1400 RPM? You know, in the area you said it surged and bucked. You never said anything about 2200 rpm.

As far as exhaust size, you have no idea what I know. I've learned more stuff by mistake than you know.

Not picking on the OP but the EIOT stuff always cracks me up.. It's always so better but with no concrete proof. Then turns out.. what they thought was right is now wrong.. but what about all those "fuel smell gone" post? I'm thinking this is 90% placebo

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Originally Posted by edcmat-l1

Here we go another guy gonna teach us all something..... :rolleyes:

Why don't you post a log of you chugging along at 1400 RPM? You know, in the area you said it surged and bucked. You never said anything about 2200 rpm.

As far as exhaust size, you have no idea what I know. I've learned more stuff by mistake than you know.

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I don't expect it to cruise smoothly through a parking lot at 1400 RPM smoothly and it likely never will, what I do expect, and it is already there, is letting a friend or other novice drive my car and being able to do a stoplight takeoff without having to slip the clutch at 2K RPM just to launch the car and so far WITHOUT going through the EOIT spreadsheet tuning tool, I'm already there thanks to Cringer! I'm the first to admit that I'm not a Tuner and will NEVER profess to be one so I'm not here to teach anyone anything....but I can teach people a shitload about making big NA RWHP....I broke the 700 RWHP NA on an SBE over a decade ago when NO ONE COULD with a cam the size of mine and that's through a 4.11 rear end which, I'm sure you know, zaps ~3% of the "reported" RWHP on a chassis dyno when compared with a 3.42 ratio! And to add further, this car "uncorrected", meaning the actual power being made on the chassis dyno was 715 RWHP vs the corrected 704 which is staggering because if I chose to race the car at that very moment in those weather conditions, it would be making 715 RHWP or well over 800 at the flywheel!

The car never did surge at ~2200 RPM & up...before even addressing the VE table the car cruised down the freeway just fine with this large cam in either 5th or 6th gear and as I continue to wash, rinse, repeat with the Wide Band logging and VE tweaking, it just gets better and better! And I'll apologize for jumpiing on your $hit edcmat-l1 but I really don't need to be lectured about my set-up...I knew full well what I was doing, what to expect as far as driveability compromises, etc but just like my self imposed challenge to exceed 700 RWHP, I am self imposing a tuning challenge upon myself to get the car to take off as smooth as possible....will it be glassy smooth like my 100% stock 2011 Z06, of course not I get it and I fully don't expect that it will be ANYWHERE close to it, but at least it can be improved from where it was with ZERO tuning bucking like an untamed bronco lol and I would appreciate leveraging any other expertise that you might have based on your decades of TUNING expertise! Peace!

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Originally Posted by ns158sl

Attachment 154566

Start with this lol

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Which table is this that you are laughing at so that I can fix it...I genuinely came on asking for help....if I wanted to get ridiculed I would just spend my time on YellowBullet and I've been there before as well dealing with frickin idiots that refuse to believe that this combo is capable of an honest, repeatable 700+ RWHP with full exhaust. Thanks in advance for your help.

What no one here can interpret is what you mean by "severe bucking/surging between 1200-2000 RPM." as compared to your expectations. Or what it's like after "95% of the bucking/surge eliminated!".

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

The car never did surge at ~2200 RPM & up...before even addressing the VE table

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LOL @ "I'll post a log 2200 rpm blah blah blah"......

2200 RPM is completely different than 1400-2000 RPM where that combo is totally uncomfortable. It isn't even in its happy spot at 2200 but at least it has some air moving through it in one direction.

It's hard to tell but here is a video of the bucking/surging was priot to the ROIT tweaking off idle upon takeoff..don't pay attention to the speedo, it's disconnected right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm0qcZX5zYI

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

It's hard to tell but here is a video of the bucking/surging was priot to the ROIT tweaking off idle upon takeoff..don't pay attention to the speedo, it's disconnected right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm0qcZX5zYI

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For the surging, I would suggest:

• You need to fix your VE table, it is rough. It is also rich.
• As already pointed out the spark table needs work too. Since your MAF is failed your ECM is referencing the LO OCTANE table.
• I would also suggest copying over the throttle and spark adaptives from a ZR1 corvette.

Points to ponder:

• Additionally the car is running in open loop...this may be required due to the cam, but I would try to make it run in closed loop.
• The car is commanded to idle at 1,100 rpms, yet the VE table is defining RPM breakpoints from 0, 250, 500, 750, 1000, 1250. This may be required to make the thing start (but then again the cranking VE is 100%...which is not possible for this cam...so that needs to be addressed I suppose), but basically you are limited to 33 columns for the VE table and you are wasting a lot of resolution on RPM areas that the engine will never operate it. I would get rid of the low RPM columns to allow you to add more columns to get you resolution where you need it.

I don't care what you do as far as tuning you're not going to get that thing to not buck pretty freakin bad in the range mentioned. There's just way too much overlap. You can't tune out reversion. Add in a short runner intake manifold and it only compounds the situation. I'm not saying you can't make it slightly better, especially when the tune is less than optimal, but you're never going to get it to be even tolerable lugging it between 1400-2000 rpm.

About the smoothest you'll make this, running it off EFI is to run it open loop and richer than stoich. But then that creates its own set of problems.

What's the piston number? Head gasket? Looking for the compression ratio.

And what fuel?

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Originally Posted by edcmat-l1

What's the piston number? Head gasket? Looking for the compression ratio.

And what fuel?

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Stock LS7 11:1 pistons, 0.040" Cometic, 12.77 SCR, 9.6 DCR. I run pump 91 octane + 16oz TORCO/10 gal for another 4 octane bringing it to ~95 octane. My previous ported LS7 casting heads on the same shortblock/cam put out 680 RWHP using 11.79 DCR & 8.9 DCR on pump 92 octane premium with zero KR.

Thanks for your help!

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Originally Posted by Cringer

So I spent several months this Summer with an oscilloscope testing EOIT and verlon reverse engineered the BIN file. Turns out everything we thought we knew to be correct is false.

I made a video to explain everything and you can download my EOIT tool to tune. All the old spreadsheets are bunk.

https://youtu.be/FmdJOOUUqQg?si=8BhJ-m1O0-3rm5Y9

BTW a cam that big is going to buck. Even worse with a MAF. EOIT won't fix that.

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THat cam is not all that big. Solid roller so you can take around 8 degrees off each lobe. Its chunky but not crazy, 2000 rpm shoudl drive decent. Yes for certain dotn waste time with a MAF on that

Another REAL dumb question.....why are my RPM's exceeding the Rev Limiter In Gear settings...seems like my "casual" rowing through the gears almost literally hit 8K RPM rather than shutting down @ 7700RPM???

id say accel max table needs to be lowered as maxing it out with its ''rate'' may not work, also ur extreme cut is 5692rpm so thats not working either, and ur switchover delay is 5 sec so u have to be in a non working limiter for 5 sec before it will try the next setting, the extreme cut is ment to be above the in gear cut so if the normal limiter cant control it then the extreme cuts fuel, maby having the extreme cut lower then gear cut disables it ?

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Originally Posted by 07GTS

id say accel max table needs to be lowered as maxing it out with its ''rate'' may not work, also ur extreme cut is 5692rpm so thats not working either, and ur switchover delay is 5 sec so u have to be in a non working limiter for 5 sec before it will try the next setting, the extreme cut is ment to be above the in gear cut so if the normal limiter cant control it then the extreme cuts fuel, maby having the extreme cut lower then gear cut disables it ?

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The 5692 RPM was in the original tune...I upped the RPM to do the road testing and it's set to 7700 RPM per the pic above...and stock the limiter is set for 5 seconds and seemed to work fine back then

Making HP is the easy part. Making it driveable is the hard part.

Like I already stated, work on your timing table. You can literally see in your first log that it pulling a shit load of timing and adding that back. With that cam, it is going to be extremely responsive to timing. Fueling is still first, but work on that timing. ALL, HO/LO/Idle/Over/Under. I laughed, because I already said to do that. Then I had to screenshot a timing table. Simmer seabiscuit.

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Originally Posted by Cringer

As already pointed out the spark table needs work too. Since your MAF is failed your ECM is referencing the LO OCTANE table.

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actually I respectfully disagree! If you look at the pic I posted for the RPM Rev Limiter concern, you'll see that the ECM is commanding 28? timing at high RPM (7k-8k RPM), this is the HO table, the LO table is 5? less across the board!

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Originally Posted by Cringer

The car is commanded to idle at 1,100 rpms, yet the VE table is defining RPM breakpoints from 0, 250, 500, 750, 1000, 1250. This may be required to make the thing start (but then again the cranking VE is 100%...which is not possible for this cam...so that needs to be addressed I suppose)

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I understand and agree but I have to tell you, as is, my car fires off almost instantaneously UNLIKE several of my friends who have almost as large a cam and their cars tuned by TRUE paid PROFESIONAL Tuners this Forum FULLY respects and will go unnamed! I'm not sure I want to do anything to change the way it currently starts....I suppose I can try reducing the VE at start a bit because 100% is unreasonable just to see what happens!

ok. So it is referencing the HO table, cool. Everything Cringer, Ed, Alvin, Etc said still stands. Regardless, post another log with an updated tune if you want more help with your ridiculous timing gain/bucking.

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Originally Posted by 88LS7MonteSS

The 5692 RPM was in the original tune...I upped the RPM to do the road testing and it's set to 7700 RPM per the pic above...and stock the limiter is set for 5 seconds and seemed to work fine back then

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the 5692rpm is ment to be the extreme cut so no matter what alse is going on it will cut at that rpm, but it is not, raising the gear value on its own will work when the other limiters arnt in play also, raise the extreme cut to 8000 and extreme resume to 7900 rpm see if that then allows the 7700rpm limiter to work, factory do things for factory reasons and ur far from factory so some things need to be done differently, when limiter is active the torque control is active trying to hang onto it so that is in play also as u can see your throttle control source is torque at the limit point, u can also add throttle in the limiter so its not just fuel cut

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Originally Posted by ns158sl

ok. So it is referencing the HO table, cool. Everything Cringer, Ed, Alvin, Etc said still stands. Regardless, post another log with an updated tune if you want more help with your ridiculous timing gain/bucking.

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Latest tune & Scan...unfortunarely now, I'm going to have to get a good drag-radial...almost lost it in 4th gear on the Freeway when the tires broke loose!

Not all OS's default to low octane in SD. A lot do.

Custom OS stuff will fix the low octane mode default in SD mode.

There is zero chance this will get along in closed loop with narrow band O2 sensors.

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Originally Posted by Alvin

Not all OS's default to low octane in SD. A lot do.

Custom OS stuff will fix the low octane mode default in SD mode.

There is zero chance this will get along in closed loop with narrow band O2 sensors.

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I have it in closed loop beause I am still tuning the PE EQ...

Narrowbands don't work when it's in PE. And PE = open loop.

Wait, you do not have a wideband in this?