Injector spreadsheet doesn't work?

If the file you want to pull data from is a late, post-'09 file, do not use the injector conversion spreadsheet. It will give you bad data.

If the IFR table has a limit of 63lb, it's an early ECM and will work with the spreadsheet. But most of the 'good' injectors come from later 127lb-limit files, and these do not convert right. The spreadsheet was created before the 127lb ECMs were out in the wild, so it was never made to work with those.

Attachment 121703

Attachment 121704

The column axis labels on the early ECMs goes from 128kPa to 640kPa, but the late ECMs go from 128 to 768. The thing that will trip you up is that both styles have the same number of columns/cells, so the data will paste into the spreadsheet just fine. However, because of the different scales the data will be taken from the wrong part of the table.

Attachment 121707

This is 2012 LSA injector data converted manually on top, and converted wrong with the spreadsheet on bottom.

Attachment 121706

And since somebody will probably ask, no, you cannot simply copy the relevant cells from the late file's 408 to 488 and paste that into the spreadsheet's 400 to 480 cells...

400 416 432 448 464 480 (6 cells)
408 428 448 468 488 (5 cells)

Thank You blindsquirrel,
My boss is doing a swap and I made this mistake.
Using the sheet it had me entering 54 in the first GEN3 column when it appears it needs to be 50 for the 12613412 injectors.

I'm judging this based off the Tune you posted some time back "1000th time is the charm". LOL
He is Running 58 PSI, NON Vacuum referenced

Found one I didn't realize I had, and I know I need to stop relaying on these sheets and learn to do it myself.

EDIT
Again Thanks for pointing this out

I keep meaning to write up a how-to, but every time I start it seems like it's going to be 30+ screenshots along with a bunch of diversions about fuel pressure and regulator type. I end up convincing myself it would be a book nobody would make it all the way through.

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

I keep meaning to write up a how-to, but every time I start it seems like it's going to be 30+ screenshots along with a bunch of diversions about fuel pressure and regulator type. I end up convincing myself it would be a book nobody would make it all the way through.

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I know this a 3 month old thread, but you would be surprised at how many would read it.
I've been rebuilding transmissions since 1976 when i did my first 350 turbo.
For example there is a tread on the LS1 Tech forum on the 4L80E lube circuits. It is a book with tons of illustrations. I have read the whole thing and have subscribed to the thread. for me it's a very good read and refresher for myself & others that have stated as such.
A post like that would help a lot of newbies more than you know...

I'm in for the read. Never can have to much info. Often it is the simple things that you just miss or was never clarified. I will often get those "Oh that's why you do that". Or a "Can't believe I missed/didn't know that".

I guess it can be simplified. All this assumes a non-referenced 'returnless' system at 58 PSI. For a different rail pressure you just use a different section of the source data. For a referenced 'return' system you only use the one column from the source data that matches the base pressure (43 PSI base would use the 300 kPa column, frinstance).

You have to open the two files in separate editor windows, you cannot use the compare feature. The tables are too different.

These are the only parts of the late-E38/E67 tables that the Gen3 file uses:
Attachment 124338

I find it helps eliminate distractions if you zero out the parts of the source tables that are not going to be used. Also zero out the entire tables in the target file before starting to make it easier to keep track of where you are.

Copy and paste the cells that match (or close enough), then interpolate across the empties:
Attachment 124339
(You can get all fancy if you like and convert to get rid of the 8kPa misalignment... really not enough of anything to make a difference, though. Your fuel pressure will probably not be exactly 58.0000 PSI anyhow. It's the shape of the data that makes the most difference, not so much the exact numbers.)

The Offset table process is similar, it's just 3D:
Attachment 124340

I find it helps to put the source file on the left and target file on the right, since 'c' is left and 'v' is right, and this is done by "click ctrl+c, click ctrl+v". It's a LOT of clicking back and forth.

When all of the available source data has been pasted you're left with:
Attachment 124341
Then interpolate ONLY between individual cells that have data in 'em. Interpolate vertically across the empties. Once all the columns-that-are-not-zeroes have been done, you can then highlight from entire column to entire column and interpolate horizontally.

Short Pulse Adder CAN be done with the spreadsheet, those axis labels did NOT change from early to late. But it can be done by hand as well. If you are a masochist.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look at the tables in 2D/3D when you think it's done. Sanity check. Fat-finger errors will happen. Save often, preferably incrementally with a new filename for each step. You will make mistaeks.

Attachment 124342

If you are a masochist and want the purity of a 100% organic hand-converted artisanal file, that Short Pulse Adder table...

Paste what's there, interpolate across what's not.
Attachment 124343

Compare them after in 2D and tweak as needed to get the shapes as close as you can.
Attachment 124344

The files have different minimum increments so the numbers will never be exactly the same. They can only be as close as they can be. This goes for the other tables as well, you can only get it as close as the file will allow and then move on with the rest of your life.

What's the harm in zeroing out the 1+ area of the adder and leaving the rest as is? What is the purpose of the short pulse adder anyway? Came here after struggling with the spreadsheet on a gen 3 with these injectors. Never noticed the cells are different from pre 09 to post 09. Good to know.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...brated-Success

So the short pulse adder is a compensation table for low PW, nonlinear flow from the injector. Looking back at it the name makes a lot more sense now. Can't wait to try out the corrected data on my customer's truck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

I guess it can be simplified. All this assumes a non-referenced 'returnless' system at 58 PSI. For a different rail pressure you just use a different section of the source data. For a referenced 'return' system you only use the one column from the source data that matches the base pressure (43 PSI base would use the 300 kPa column, frinstance).

You have to open the two files in separate editor windows, you cannot use the compare feature. The tables are too different.

These are the only parts of the late-E38/E67 tables that the Gen3 file uses:
Attachment 124338

I find it helps eliminate distractions if you zero out the parts of the source tables that are not going to be used. Also zero out the entire tables in the target file before starting to make it easier to keep track of where you are.

Copy and paste the cells that match (or close enough), then interpolate across the empties:
Attachment 124339
(You can get all fancy if you like and convert to get rid of the 8kPa misalignment... really not enough of anything to make a difference, though. Your fuel pressure will probably not be exactly 58.0000 PSI anyhow. It's the shape of the data that makes the most difference, not so much the exact numbers.)

The Offset table process is similar, it's just 3D:
Attachment 124340

I find it helps to put the source file on the left and target file on the right, since 'c' is left and 'v' is right, and this is done by "click ctrl+c, click ctrl+v". It's a LOT of clicking back and forth.

When all of the available source data has been pasted you're left with:
Attachment 124341
Then interpolate ONLY between individual cells that have data in 'em. Interpolate vertically across the empties. Once all the columns-that-are-not-zeroes have been done, you can then highlight from entire column to entire column and interpolate horizontally.

Short Pulse Adder CAN be done with the spreadsheet, those axis labels did NOT change from early to late. But it can be done by hand as well. If you are a masochist.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look at the tables in 2D/3D when you think it's done. Sanity check. Fat-finger errors will happen. Save often, preferably incrementally with a new filename for each step. You will make mistaeks.

Attachment 124342

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The interpolate function between known values works pretty well. I ended up sourcing the startup MAF curve values for my LS3 cartridge MAF from a GM Crate 525HP LS3 file. I put the data in where the HZ values lined up then interpolated between. Worked great for startup and tweaked from there. My housing is 2" shorter than ideal and the tubing has a bend before and after the housing out of necessity.

Attachment 128318
Attachment 128319
Attachment 128320

Now the real fun is getting late model Ford data into a GM. The newer Ford data does not convert using the Ford to GM spread sheet and I had to put alot of numbers on paper while using my old TI-83 graphing calculator. On my application, I am glad it is vacuum referenced. Only have one row of offsets to calculate and not a varied pressure across the injector. I would probably have calculated the end rows and the center row and interpolated between.

I have different start numbers to input into spreedsheet.

The screenshots up above are not for converting LSA/LS9 injectors, it's showing the general process of what to take from where.

The LSA/LS9 injector is 53.0lb at 408kPa, or 59.1754psi. At 58.000psi (or 400kPa delta, or the Gen3's 0kPa vacuum) they are 52.5182445198538lb, which is the value used in the Gen3 files I posted.

DO NOT try to use the spreadsheet for late Gen4s with the 128-768kPa tables! They have the same number of cells as the earlier 128-640 format files, so the spreadsheet appears to work, but the data gets converted and put into the wrong cells! No spreadsheet for late Gen4s!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fast4.7

The interpolate function between known values works pretty well. I ended up sourcing the startup MAF curve values for my LS3 cartridge MAF from a GM Crate 525HP LS3 file. I put the data in where the HZ values lined up then interpolated between. Worked great for startup and tweaked from there. My housing is 2" shorter than ideal and the tubing has a bend before and after the housing out of necessity.

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I tried 2 different MAF curves to see where they fell for startup. The 525 hp and the Lingenfelter. I too interpolated between matching values on the 525 MAF. On my setup the Lingenfelter was a better starting point. I found both were very lean in the 3,500-7,500 hz range on both engines I have that MAF on. I too have a bends before and after the MAF. On my 383 it has 90* coming out of the air filter housing and a 45 into the TB bonnet hat on my Vortec which is also a 90* turn into the throttle body. On my 8.1L the MAF is toward the middle of a long straight shot of pipe. There is a 90 off the air box and a 90 off the throttle body and a long straight shot of tubing between.

Can someone please compare/ check the injector data using this updated Excel?

I have updated the Excel for more accurate data migration and easier plug n play.

Did you do more to it than just change the axis labels?

It's not even got good data in it on initial opening, the 12598646 does not flow 55.39 at the Gen3's 0 kPa vacuum. Gen3 0 kPa vacuum should be the Gen4's 400 kPa pressure delta.

It also has 32 cells in the Flow Rate (edit: & Offset) section, while the Gen4 files have 33. 768 kPa is missing.

Oh you know what, I copied with labels and it populated 0 as a label value. I deleted the ms /label and shifted cells. It should have kept the math intact though, it uses the cell's axis inside the expression. After re-labeling I should have replaced with 0 instead of deleting and shifting cells, I lost 1.
Thanks Blindsquirrel.
I'll try it again. I think the data translation is right other than that.

Well if you put in the LSA injector data and it spits out 56 lb @ 0 kPa vac instead of 52, that probably means it's still using the data from cells 18 thru 23 regardless of the axis labels. The late Gen4 data needs to use cells 15 thru 19.

How do you convert pressure delta to MAP? Or use it otherwise. I put L96 injectors in an L59 and the table in the L96 cal is all zeroed out.

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Originally Posted by 8CylMode

How do you convert pressure delta to MAP? Or use it otherwise. I put L96 injectors in an L59 and the table in the L96 cal is all zeroed out.

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Which one is 'the table'? There's more than one in the Gen4 that uses pressure delta.

Could you please post new or updated attachments to the 12613412 data? Every attachment or link says it?s invalid and I need it bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cee212

Could you please post new or updated attachments to the 12613412 data? Every attachment or link says it?s invalid and I need it bad.

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If this doesnt work i can email it to you.

It didn?t. [email protected] is the email id greatly appreciate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cee212

It didn?t. [email protected] is the email id greatly appreciate it.

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The file that's linked downloads just fine, and it opens after saving, and the file that opens is the same one I posted originally. Not sure having the file mailed to you instead of right click/save as is going to help with whatever problem you are having. You'll just get the exact same file all over again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

The file that's linked downloads just fine, and it opens after saving, and the file that opens is the same one I posted originally. Not sure having the file mailed to you instead of right click/save as is going to help with whatever problem you are having. You'll just get the exact same file all over again.

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forgive my ignorance, im new to the tuning world and trying to learn as I go.

so I downloaded your spread sheet for my E38 6.0 and am trying to dial in the injectors since the tune that is on there is incorrect, per the guys that originally built the motor/trans setup I installed. long story short, I see all the Gen3 flow form information about the injectors 12613412, but I dont understand how to convert it over to gen4. the biggest confusion I have is that the form has 0-80kpa Vs mine is in the 600s, and even if I convert to PSI, it doesnt start at 0 like your guide does. any help would be appreciated, and again, sorry for the lack of knowledge, learning as I go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OG Metalworks

forgive my ignorance, im new to the tuning world and trying to learn as I go.

so I downloaded your spread sheet for my E38 6.0 and am trying to dial in the injectors since the tune that is on there is incorrect, per the guys that originally built the motor/trans setup I installed. long story short, I see all the Gen3 flow form information about the injectors 12613412, but I dont understand how to convert it over to gen4. the biggest confusion I have is that the form has 0-80kpa Vs mine is in the 600s, and even if I convert to PSI, it doesnt start at 0 like your guide does. any help would be appreciated, and again, sorry for the lack of knowledge, learning as I go.

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There is your problem. The spread sheet is for Gen 3 stuff so you can use other Gen 4ish injectors that will have more fuel and/or non referenced Gen 3 stuff.

The 12613412 data for an E38 comes from... another E38 that's from a 2010-up L96 which came from the factory with 12613412 injectors.

If your "E38" (you did not post your file, because you don't know enough yet to know what people would need to look at to give you a more accurate answer) is an early (2009-down) that has the 128-640 axis labels and a 63lb flow rate limit, then you need to ask for a one-off conversion from the 2010 128-768 axis127lb limit data. And you ask in the Gen 4 forum. STOP looking for stuff in the Gen 3s, you will only get more off track.