5.7 hemi 2007 advice needed (closed loop issue)

[Israfil]

Hi there,
I managed to get my new engine and cam breathing ok on open loop editing the VE tables, but the moment I give her her computer control back she goes from stoich and running fairly ok to 20AFR and running like crap. I've tried tuning it TO the closed loop trims, which kinda worked but seemed messy and imprecise and the 3d looked like a mountain crag. The current tune i've got has closed disabled by upping the CL Prereq temperature to 300+ and editing the VE tables. I also spent this morning getting the enrichment table for temperature somewhere close to happy, so hopefully that won't be causing any issues, but I can't seem to find anything on how to modify the short or long term fuel trims for the 2007s. I've tried clearing the adaptives to see if maybe thats the issue, but no dice. I've posted the most recent logs with and without closed loop and my current tune with it enabled but the VE tables pretty much just set up to run in open.. Anyone able to take a look and see if im missing something, or maybe point me to where i need to be looking next? Is there a multiplier that's screwing me up when the delay is up and she bumps into closed loop that i can just balance out and be good, or do i just have to tune it to the closed loop setup? I'm sure i'm coming off as extreme newb but well... i am, so i guess thats appropriate. ^_^ Be gentle please Also incase it wasnt obvious, Luna is my car's name.

Thanks guys. This has been...quite an experience. Scary, tinkering this deep into my car, but rewarding knowing that my changes are helping her breathe better and seeing her sigh comfortably when i get things balanced is nice.

[rays04gtx]

1st when you get VE Close to optimal it'll look like the Rockies (1st two attached) that Car is a customers 06 5.7 Magnum, all forged , big Valve Eagle heads , Cam is .600\.600 , 255/260 @ 50 . 106LSA

looking at your Logs, looks like you are logging(3rd attachment, Luna 1) LTFTB1+STFTB1 (and LTFTB2+STFTB2) correctly. what you need to do , is take the Info from those graphs,(4th Attachment,Luna2), Paste special multiply by % - Half , do it for both banks(5th attachment Luna3)

do that a few times till its gets with in 10% , then take a nice long drive( burn up some fuel) , keep Luna out of WOT situations, manually shift few times keep her under 4000-4500 RPMs

And repeat a few times, remember it's dam near imposable to get it perfect. I feel if you can get it with in 3% on a long daily drive log...your doing good.

Your VE is WAY out of control, and also what's up with (luna4) NO PE enrichment ?

[LilSick]

i was looking at that tune last night

got to the PE and said "well, alrighty then"

smaller is fatter - what happens tho if you put zero in a cell????

[PurpleRam]

?Smaller is fatter?? PE adds to stoich , if there?s 0 it adds nothing to fueling during WOT.
WOT fueling is stoich value(say.0694) + PE table(.0694+ .0135)

OP, go into your ?channels? start logging Base VE& Total VE for both banks, remember Base VE is what the PCM wants and Total VE is what the engine is actually doing.
I didn?t look at the tune yet, so I?m just asking questions at this point

OP, did you mess with any of the injector settings? Since this a replacement engine, how long did the injectors sit un-used?
If I remember the cam is a comp 268h?

[Israfil]

1st when you get VE Close to optimal it'll look like the Rockies (1st two attached) that Car is a customers 06 5.7 Magnum, all forged , big Valve Eagle heads , Cam is .600\.600 , 255/260 @ 50 . 106LSA

looking at your Logs, looks like you are logging(3rd attachment, Luna 1) LTFTB1+STFTB1 (and LTFTB2+STFTB2) correctly. what you need to do , is take the Info from those graphs,(4th Attachment,Luna2), Paste special multiply by % - Half , do it for both banks(5th attachment Luna3)

do that a few times till its gets with in 10% , then take a nice long drive( burn up some fuel) , keep Luna out of WOT situations, manually shift few times keep her under 4000-4500 RPMs

And repeat a few times, remember it's dam near imposable to get it perfect. I feel if you can get it with in 3% on a long daily drive log...your doing good.

Your VE is WAY out of control, and also what's up with (luna4) NO PE enrichment ?

I turned off PE because I'm not trying to tune that yet and since she's breaking in I never let myself wot her anyway. Ive actually considered locking the pedal out of WOT range for break-in, but being in vegas dealing with poor drivers i may need full controls at some point.The youtube videos I found mostly said to 0 the PE chart out to remove it as a factor while tuning VE, then bring it back in from the as sits file when youre done. Or adjust further from there once VE is set up properly.

Thats basically what I've been doing, the paste special half thing.
Are you basically saying that you leave closed loop enabled and just tune the VE to compensate for whatever her st fuel trims decide to do? If thats what I'm supposed to do i can, I just thought it'd be much closer if i set up the long term fueling/VE table, since I can find that, and then ask you guys if there's a way to edit the ST fuel trims (like a maf table maybe?) I know some cars have access to it, I dint know if our hemi gen 3 do.

The thing is, when I force it to stay out of closed loop its 14.6-15.5 afr and she runs frankly...great.. but if I enable closed loop she shoots up to between 17 and 20 afr...which I would think is really unhealthy for the engine, and also she barely runs.

[Israfil]

?Smaller is fatter?? PE adds to stoich , if there?s 0 it adds nothing to fueling during WOT.
WOT fueling is stoich value(say.0694) + PE table(.0694+ .0135)

OP, go into your ?channels? start logging Base VE& Total VE for both banks, remember Base VE is what the PCM wants and Total VE is what the engine is actually doing.
I didn?t look at the tune yet, so I?m just asking questions at this point

OP, did you mess with any of the injector settings? Since this a replacement engine, how long did the injectors sit un-used?
If I remember the cam is a comp 268h?

correct, 268 is the same specs as the one that comes in the hp103, so they say...

Injectors are brand new, literally replaced with engine. Engine (and cam) is the hp103 from ATK. Also just replaced the o2 sensors last night to see if they were just fouled, same issue sadly...though the old ones were filthy.

I havent changed any injector settings because I don't understand them at all just yet. Hopefully at the end of this I'll have a good enough understanding of her to keep her happy no matter what happens...

I'll make sure ive got those on for my next log, I make fairly long drives to pick up the wifey each day so ive been adjusting Luna using those.

Since I'm asking questions, I should also ask, could one of you direct me which location to retard the spark in, and how much I can/should do so for safety sake while I'm getting her tables set up properly? Ive been too scared to touch advance because I dont know whether I should be going further negative, or positive to retard it nor how much I can, nor which table I should do it on, nor how much is safe. Timing scares me, admittedly I never really "got" it, so the last thing I wanna do is blow up my baby because I didnt understand something.

Her current spark settings are from my previous superchips 91 "canned" tune i had from my old engine.

[LilSick]

why are the sensors dirty if it is really running lean

if you want safe spark load the stock numbers back into it

[Israfil]

why are the sensors dirty if it is really running lean

if you want safe spark load the stock numbers back into it

The sensors were probably dirty because they probably weren't changed for 170,000 miles... Im not the car's first owner, so im not really sure how long they were in there. Regardless, ive changed them now.

The current spark numbers are basically my "as sits" numbers. I dont have "stock", but I have "as sits" from whatever superchips 91 octane gives it. I could use knowing which direction to go, like.."add towards negative to retard spark" or, "add towards positive to retard" can probably figure it from there. I just need to know which direction is safer and which is more 'splodey'

[rays04gtx]

I don't have a lot of time grandkids, easter...egg hunts and what nots.


Tune 1 is a bone stock 06 Maggy ,
Tune 2 is your tune File(last 4 digits of your vin) set back to stock...except trans values, the pervious tune file has some good changes, so I didn't want to modify those.
Tune 3 is your tune file with copied and pasted values from our starter Comp 268 File templet, again your current trans values were left as found.

Compare tunes to what you currently have....

If you load 9685 Aa.1(2) I would STRONGLY advise you to disconnect the battery 1st for 10-15 mins , I left the stock RPM limitations, but kept MDS "disable"


Again 9685 Aa.1(1) is your File returned to OEM OS values(except trans) ........your car will NOT idle on that tune with a 268h cam, you could jockey throttle around for a while and get it to learn how to run...but I don't advise it.

[Israfil]

I don't have a lot of time grandkids, easter...egg hunts and what nots.


Tune 1 is a bone stock 06 Maggy ,
Tune 2 is your tune File(last 4 digits of your vin) set back to stock...except trans values, the pervious tune file has some good changes, so I didn't want to modify those.
Tune 3 is your tune file with copied and pasted values from our starter Comp 268 File templet, again your current trans values were left as found.

Compare tunes to what you currently have....

If you load 9685 Aa.1(2) I would STRONGLY advise you to disconnect the battery 1st for 10-15 mins , I left the stock RPM limitations, but kept MDS "disable"


Again 9685 Aa.1(1) is your File returned to OEM OS values(except trans) ........your car will NOT idle on that tune with a 268h cam, you could jockey throttle around for a while and get it to learn how to run...but I don't advise it.

Much appreciated man, didn't need to do all that work though! If I'm understanding you correctly the one id be wanting to compare to, long-term, is the file 3, the template file. Im mostly just trying to understand a few things im not quite getting yet about tuning. The problem with comparing to stock (and the reason I didnt compare to the one on the repository to figure it out) is that I have no way of knowing if stock, or my current tune, is more "conservative" in the spark department. Im GUESSING bone stock is safer, but its always possible that whoever made the tune I had on her actually set her up to be more tame than stock, because i dont know which direction advances the timing and which direction retards it, negative or positive numbers.
Would you know the answer to that? (Or anyone for that matter? The internet seems pretty bad about actual correct tuning info...lol) spark is the next thing im gonna want to tinker with after I get her breathing perfectly.

The other thing id really like to know (the thread's main purpose), which im still not grasping, is "what settings are making it go from stoich when in open loop, to suddenly way lean the moment I allow it to enter closed loop" I took a log, and its showing me around .32%-2% off of perfect EQ error on just about every cell on the table, with a few outliers around 4% that ill fix shortly, but only if I leave closed loop disabled.

I'll look at the files, of course, and see if anything just "clicks" in my brain, but I think I'm missing that crucial information of what setting it is thats telling the computer to lean things out, but only in closed loop... without knowing that I dont know what difference im looking for. I think its sometimes called the short term throttle trims, but I can't find any way to CHANGE those... If im understanding right the VE is "long term trims".

By the way, wouldnt the reset options in the scanning software (under vehicle>controls and special functions>reset adaptives/TCM adaptives) be better than doing the 15 minute battery pull? I was under the impression that they had added that menu for us so we didn't need to do battery pulls anymore.

I'll sum up a tldr version here:
1. Thank you for taking the time to respond!
2. Where do I modify short term fuel trims OR do I just need to make the long term compensate for un-modifiable short terms by tuning VE with closed loop enabled? (ugh, bad dodge engineer, bad! Bad initial design on dodge's part IMO)
3. Which direction of spark is more conservative/retard and which is considered "advance", negative numbers or positive numbers?

[Israfil]

Here... this is how shes currently running, closed loop still disabled. I'm not trying to get someone to do it for me, I just want to understand where i'm going wrong and fix it myself. She seems to run really well, but only until I reactivate closed loop. (oxygen sensors>closedloop enable>coolant temp, currently set at 316 to keep it out of closed loop, as-sits was 16 degrees) This is the problem im chasing right now, before I can move forward and start learning other parameters, the spark thing was an aside mostly, and secondary to just finding out where to go to modify the closed loop/ST fuel trims so they can work properly with my current working VE table..

Edit: Ok...I could be way off here, are all the tutorials on youtube wrong? Should I be tuning it with closedloop enabled so the VE table simply compensates for the short term trims being way off from what they should be if you tuned it one table at a time? If theres no way to edit the short term trims i could see getting around it that way... is that what you're trying to tell me?

[PurpleRam]

Looking at the Luna tune, you’re not in open loop, only way to go open lop is to raise open loop enable tables to 376f , yours are still stock.

The timing tables are opposite of logic, retard timing are - value, advance are +

[PurpleRam]

Ok so after reading you post….. all the tuning ve videos are based on closed loop, tuning open loop is more of a WOT tuning and it’s all done on the PE table which you zeroed out..
Return to closed loop and follow the videos


Use 9685 Aa.2 as a comparison to get a baseline, running afr of 20 something is going hurt those pistons

Yes Ray didn’t have to do that extra work, but he’s like me and believes you need to know what the stock base is , so you know where to go “home to” if you get too out there.

[Israfil]

Looking at the Luna tune, you?re not in open loop, only way to go open lop is to raise open loop enable tables to 376f , yours are still stock.

The timing tables are opposite of logic, retard timing are - value, advance are +

My enable is at 316f.... one of the tune files I attached was the closed loop file, which has it back at 16 degrees to enable it. Here, ill reattach the most current tune that I've got that runs

Also.... the 9685 a2 barely runs, idle completely unstable, but the VE isn't too different from mine.

[Israfil]

Ok so after reading you post….. all the tuning ve videos are based on closed loop, tuning open loop is more of a WOT tuning and it’s all done on the PE table which you zeroed out..
Return to closed loop and follow the videos


Use 9685 Aa.2 as a comparison to get a baseline, running afr of 20 something is going hurt those pistons

Yes Ray didn’t have to do that extra work, but he’s like me and believes you need to know what the stock base is , so you know where to go “home to” if you get too out there.

This is the series of videos that had me doing openloop tuning for VE. https://youtu.be/rmzpQBnTJ9w. Its not specifically to our hemis but he's got it showing as a kind of overall how to so I figured it'd still apply... Im guessing we have no access to editing the st fuel trims though...which would explain why we'd have to tune in closed loop on... because the dang OS doesn't seem to let you MAP tune...

Do you have a "go to" video set that i can go off of? Something that i can actually trust to be correct? Im ok with relearning but id rather not re-relearn lol

Also the power enrich i mostly just 0ed out as a way to disable power enrichment while tuning the VE table, I do plan to return it to what it was afterwards and then adjust it until its feeling like it should.

[PurpleRam]

I’ve been meaning to make a video for hemi ve tuning, but that doesn’t help you today, search for reckless motorsports on you tube, he’s got a few hemi specific videos,

PE table is only triggered when APPS goes over the set voltage, in you case I think it was set to 3.1ish v

[Israfil]

I?ve been meaning to make a video for hemi ve tuning, but that doesn?t help you today, search for reckless motorsports on you tube, he?s got a few hemi specific videos,

PE table is only triggered when APPS goes over the set voltage, in you case I think it was set to 3.1ish v

His is one of the ones on my tuning Playlist, but it was only 8 mins so there wasn't a lot of new info and he was a bit vague on a few things. Its too bad people are so guarded about heni info... guess they don't wanna reveal any trade secrets to newbies.

[PurpleRam]

I’ll have a ve video by the end of the week, did a two parter about setting up the vcm scanner

[LilSick]

for your graphs do you use short term + long term, pressure ratio vs rpm like reckless?

look forward to watching what ya got and appreciate anyones effort to share what they found and how they found it

thx in advance

[PurpleRam]

for your graphs do you use short term + long term, pressure ratio vs rpm like reckless?

look forward to watching what ya got and appreciate anyones effort to share what they found and how they found it

thx in advance

Yes, ltft+stft Bank 1 for the function, rpm for column, p-ratio row axis. Duplicate for bank two. Posted the 1st one last night, doing a follow up by Sunday night, showing the results and some other tricks