Let me go through everything vacuum related and start over.. sorry I didn’t know I wouldn’t of been spending this time
Let me go through everything vacuum related and start over.. sorry I didn’t know I wouldn’t of been spending this time
It's no problem.
MeowOriginally Posted by edcmat-l1
Time for a history lesson I GUESS
Lets go back to 1994
Thats right, A factory 1994 Honda used a Wideband oxygen sensor and a MAP ONLY configuration for Maximum fuel economy.
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...how-24948.html
https://www.fuelly.com/forums/f11/wh...nly-11214.html
Back then, widebands are SUPER expensive, so it wasn't common. But, as technology does, things got cheaper and more manufacturers began using widebands.Honda lean burn systems
One of the newest lean-burn technologies available in automobiles currently in production uses very precise control of fuel injection, a strong air-fuel swirl created in the combustion chamber, a new linear air-fuel sensor (LAF type O2 sensor) and a lean-burn NOx catalyst to further reduce the resulting NOx emissions that increase under "lean-burn" conditions and meet NOx emissions requirements.
This stratified-charge approach to lean-burn combustion means that the air-fuel ratio isn't equal throughout the cylinder. Instead, precise control over fuel injection and intake flow dynamics allows a greater concentration of fuel closer to the spark plug tip (richer), which is required for successful ignition and flame spread for complete combustion. The remainder of the cylinders' intake charge is progressively leaner with an overall average air:fuel ratio falling into the lean-burn category of up to 22:
These are TURBO and NON Turbo wideband factory OEM applications...
But surely, the wideband fell out of favor at some point? Otherwise why would everybody....
Nope. You see now Quality OEM Manufacturers adopted Widebands as early as 1990's and KEPT USING THEM TO THIS DAY because they clearly offer something superior for OEM quality. To. This. Day.
Just because YOUR manufacturer was being cheap and didn't give YOU a factory wideband doesn't mean you have to suffer without one. To me this is pretty funny because usually when I say "Cars didn't come with catch cans for a reason" I get the response that "Catch cans would cost more money so the manufacturer bean counters didn't install one even though it was needed". But when I say "Cars didn't come with widebands because the manufacturer was being cheap" I get the response "Narrowbands are superior that is why we don't have widebands". There is just no teaching or convincing people that don't want to learn, they always make some excuse.
Onwards
As you can see there are Quality OEM turbo and non-turbo manufacturers since 1994 that have been using wideband oxygen sensors. And to this day.
As well as Many highly regarded cars use only MAP sensor
Always thought it was interesting the Supra twin turbo 2002 in Japan was MAP only but they discontinued the MAF USA version in 1998.
https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...9/post-6645154
Nissan skyline and silva are turbo MAF Only... no map!The OEM JDM 2JZGTE uses a MAP system, the USDM uses the MAF. They both work very well up to the limits of their design ranges but if you start making more power with more air and fuel flow required above the range of the OEM device, you have to step up to something else and almost all (if not all) aftermarket fuel controllers are MAP based.
All of those legendary cars go 300,000 miles and factory turbocharged, highly sought.
But lets look around shall we? Lets find some common examples of light economy AND powerful heavy V8 gasoline engines that don't have MAF sensors....
https://www.driveaccord.net/threads/...24/post-937371
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4494805my car is 2004 accord ex and i dont have MAF either..
2005 trailblazerThere is no MAF on our cars. You could try replacing #8
https://www.trailvoy.com/threads/200...5/post-1646142
https://dodgeforum.com/forum/2nd-gen...ml#post2784718As TJBaker stated the 2002 - 2005 model years with the 4.2L engine generally DO NOT have MAF sensors.
2015 Dodge Charger SRTThere's no mass air flow sensor. Look at your air cleaner assembly and the plastic tube attached...see a mass air flow sensor? You shoudln't...
Dodge tried MAF and went back to MAP onlyThere is no MAF sensor on these cars, they use MAP.
So the higher horsepower V8 gasoline power plants of DODGE make tried MAF and then went back to MAP only after 2016... I Guess that means MAP ONLY is an acceptable solution for high power V8 engines.MAF was only used on the hellcat engines for 2015/2016. All other Dodge Hemi engines have used speed density before and after that time. I don't know if its something they wanted to try out or what but they went back to speed density for a reason.
My summary. Tis no crime wanting not to have a maf sensor and it isn't wrong to want a high quality wideband replacement for that cheap narrowband pos. You aren't doing yourselves any favors covering your eyes and spreading lies and rumor about maf sensors and narrowbands being superior or necessary. I don't know where that crap is coming from but it needs to stop. Tune a few 1500hp engines that go 30mpg and you will get it maybe. Many OEM Manufacturers use widebands. Many OEM Manufacturers use MAP only for economical and heavy V8 gasoline engines. Open your eyes to what is happening in the world.
Aftermarket ECU have to certify run 9,500rpm 4000 horsepower monsters and you think that they use an 'inferior' MAP only system with an 'inferior' wideband? Right,... Sure! Its worse to have fewer sensors! Lmao. Because complexity is a good thing right? Who wants to open the hood and see only 3things when we can have VVTi, AFM, DOD, Real time cams, Direct injection, specialized emissions equipment, and so forth! Yeah thats all GREAT for performance. Oh I get it now, this isn't a performance forum, its a worship every factory engine the way it came and keep it that way forum because some brainwashed elders who have been making the same mistakes for 20 years told you the only way they know how and since everybody knows its wrong to think outside the box and try new things that might be better we should just keep doing it the old ways meanwhile modern manufacturers and every aftermarket race car oriented system has clearly moved on. GREAT IDEA GG GJ GL rofl
I agree with a lot of those opinions. But we are tuning a GM GEN 3 PCM...In this literal forum. So i guess id stick with following how those work lol. You keep trying to compare other OEM's and standalones. What part of a P01 or a P59 makes you think they work like a Haltech or some ancient Japanese OEM ECU? Your whole WB theory is flawed too. Why is a Bosch 4.9 the same sensor supplied with a 200 dollar kit, but also is supplied with a 2000 dollar kit? Right, (mostly wrong), or indifferent, you have to stop spreading weirdo theories trying to help people new into tuning. For the love of god, quit posting random screen shots that are so irreverent. Post in the lounge forum.
OP, figure out if your mechanicals are in line. Dial in VE. Dial in MAF. Or do it the other way around, doesn't really matter. Always post tune with log, along with what you have current issues/question with. Also remember this forum has been around for 20ish years, there probably is a lot of answers on here already. Just search or use Google to search the site.
Answers you say? On this forum?
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post570411There's really no need to run the MAF on your application. I'd go SD and never look back.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post569869I agree with 5FDP on running the map only for p01 and p59.
It seems that many people on this forum believe as I do and you simply lack education and the ability to take your own advice.
So once I find the vacuum leak and fix it it should be running very rich? I?m just trying to think could the regulator not being set correctly cause this? Not sure if the injectors require a different base psi. Also is there any internal engine issue that could cause this?
Re checked the regulator put a new vacuum line on it now it’s running more lean but
Be careful who you listen to on here. If they can't give you the point in a few sentences than they don't truly understand and they are dazzling you with bullshit.
Tuner at PCMofnc.com
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Truth.
EFI specialist
Advanced diagnostics, tuning, emissions
HPtuners dealer and tech support
email=[email protected]
You're stuck in 1994. You've already admitted you don't and can't tune electronic throttle cars. So that cuts you off around 2003 at the latest. You aren't doing any GEN4 stuff not to mention GEN5.
You constantly compare everything to aftermarket ECUs. News flash! Aftermarket ECUs are ridiculously easy to tune and primitive compared to any OEM controller from the past 20 years.
Couple weeks ago you were arguing the definition of VE with me. You didn't know widebands were calibratable. You admitted not being able to tune ETC vehicles but then you were giving some poster the wrong information on how to tame his return to idle in a C5 with a lightweight flywheel and clutch.
Your own tune file is complete junk. There's nothing in it that makes mathematical sense. So "as much as you like math" you sure didn't use any when calibrating your own car.
You really should just leave. You junk the place up with terrible information. You promote shear hackery.
EFI specialist
Advanced diagnostics, tuning, emissions
HPtuners dealer and tech support
email=[email protected]
I was hoping you'd verify fuel pressure first of all. 58 psi with the vacuum line to the regulator disconnected. Something is definitely off.
I did it was 58 psi originally kicked up 2psi because I just bought new vacuum lines and double checked. I wonder if the injectors are meant for 3 bar 43.5 base pressure? I checked all over for vacuum leaks I wouldn’t mind paying for a quick video chat to help idk.. I’m going to look at my older logs before I did the tbss swap and new injectors. Essentially if the issue is fixed your saying my log should turn very rich?
Yes, given the VE table as it is now, it would be rich if things were correct. That is the GM data, so it's meant for 58psi. Fuel pressure is good. Idk what else it could be. Maybe double check that they sent you the right data for those injectors?
Here let's try something. Run this tune and post a log.
after sirius tune file.hpl the lean spike 3rd gear higher rpm decel
oo let me try
1. VE tuning is a legitimate way to tune a vehicle and many OEM vehicles use MAP only and many on this forum also use and suggest VE tuning with delete MAF in fact this is the whole point for 2-bar and 3-bar OS upgrades. Key word 'upgrade'.
2. Widebands are superior to narrowbands in every way. Widebands contain a narrowband in fact.
3. Simpler setups are easier to work on and easier to tune and diagnose.
That is what this entire discussion and problems are about. And I stated it simply for you as you suggested. Now , tell me I am wrong.
Ok again. Do you have a wideband? If so include it in the next log. I'd like to see if there's an offset between commanded and actual being caused by injector data
Yes either I’ll have to wire it through egr or just buy the pro feature set already have the cable.
So some reason I cant get my egr disable enable button on the tune anywhere. I did that epa class for the parameter access and all it shows now is a disable and enable speed
EGR voltage will still read. That stuff is for function test.
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