What is the correct way to adjust the Min Air ECT scaler table

[Allen Vos]

I have logged my ECT/min air(dynamic air) in a log from cold startup and Im wondering what the correct way is to apply this to the ECT Multiplier chart?

Here is my log
Min Air Flow vs ECT Log.png

Here is my min air /ECT multiplier table.

Min AIr Flow Vs ECT Multiplier table.png

Does anyone know what the formula is using the multiplier to figure out min air flow?

I picked this up on another post, something about the ECT multiplier.
(ectmultiplier vs RPM) /.25

Its a formula of some kind. Not sure if its right or not , but I cant make much sense of it.

Min air flow is set perfectly but have a bit of a hanging idle for about 10 seconds when the car is cold and I would just like to know the "Correct" way you guys set this?

Ill include the cold start log as well. Sorry its a bit long but one thing I noticed is that about 17 seconds into the log after a cold start the O2 sensors go rich and about 30 seconds into the log the STFT is pulling quite a bit of fuel out until about 3.5 min at roughly 44 degrees of ECT , then STFT comes back within a few percent again.

So definetly running rich on startup to operating temp.

Engine runs great when HOT and no drivability issues either.

Is there any other warmup tables I need to be looking at or is the ECT min air multiplier all there is?

I picked this up on another post, something about the ECT multiplier.
(ectmultiplier vs RPM) /.25

Its a formula of some kind. Not sure if its right or not , but I cant make much sense of it.

24-02-25 cold start ect min air flow log.hpl

[edcmat-l1]

Another table that typically doesn't need modified.

[hjtrbo]

Agreed.

But............ lol, You need yourself a nice spreadsheet.

Build 2x 3d table lookup formulas
Put idle air multiplier table into the first
Then the idle min air table for park into the second

Do a datalog (just use one you've done already) and export to csv.
In the csv locate the timestamp, rpm, ect, min air and dyn air columns. Save those to a new workbook.

In your new workbook slice up the timestamps to 1 every 10 seconds to reduce the row count considerably.

Going back to your table lookup workbook, create a new sheet and insert your log data.
Then write some vb code to iterate over your log data which references the multiplier and min air tables
Plot the output against min air
Make adjustments to the ect table in your spreadsheet and re-run the sim
Review plot and iterate again if needed.
Make adjustment to tune, flash, re-test

OR, look at min air against dyn against rpm over a warm up. Adjust ect table as best you can by your interpretation of the log data. Rinse repeat the next day.

[Allen Vos]

Another table that typically doesn't need modified.

Do you modify anything when you tune cars? lol It seems you like to leave everything stock.

Instead of being a PITA and coming on here telling me I don't need to modify it, maybe you could be helpful and look at my log.

Just so you know you also told me to leave the Torque tables and the throttle follower alone in another one of my posts, yet others were telling me to try this and change that and guess what? It improved my idle blip. Imagine that eh, these tables actually do something. lol

SO yeah, I'm calling you out on that, and after all that following your advice at least for me is going to be difficult from here on in.

After all it was HJTRBO(NATHAN) that mentioned to me in another thread that my ECT min Air multiplier was out of whack a bit and needed to be set.

Nathan has bent over backwards to help me despite the two of us getting started on the wrong foot so I will prolly respect and listen to what he says from here on in

[Allen Vos]

Agreed.

But............ lol, You need yourself a nice spreadsheet.

Build 2x 3d table lookup formulas
Put idle air multiplier table into the first
Then the idle min air table for park into the second

Do a datalog (just use one you've done already) and export to csv.
In the csv locate the timestamp, rpm, ect, min air and dyn air columns. Save those to a new workbook.

In your new workbook slice up the timestamps to 1 every 10 seconds to reduce the row count considerably.

Going back to your table lookup workbook, create a new sheet and insert your log data.
Then write some vb code to iterate over your log data which references the multiplier and min air tables
Plot the output against min air
Make adjustments to the ect table in your spreadsheet and re-run the sim
Review plot and iterate again if needed.
Make adjustment to tune, flash, re-test

OR, look at min air against dyn against rpm over a warm up. Adjust ect table as best you can by your interpretation of the log data. Rinse repeat the next day.

Ummm..... That seems pretty complex Nathan lol

I like your last option though lol

So the log I showed was logging dynamic air against ECT (ROW) and RPM(column)

So what you are telling me is to do the same thing as that but log min air flow against ECT(ROW) and RPM(column)

Now what would I be looking for in comparing the 2 logs?

Does the multiplier value in the table represent anything that can be used in a Math formula to figure this out?

[hjtrbo]

Just look at your charts instead over the whole idle warm up. Make a basic chart with ect, min air and dyn air. That will tell you heaps about which way the adjustments need to go. But to backup edcmat it really doesn't matter that much. I used to tune mine, now I just leave them stock.

[edcmat-l1]

Do you modify anything when you tune cars? lol It seems you like to leave everything stock.

Instead of being a PITA and coming on here telling me I don't need to modify it, maybe you could be helpful and look at my log.

Just so you know you also told me to leave the Torque tables and the throttle follower alone in another one of my posts, yet others were telling me to try this and change that and guess what? It improved my idle blip. Imagine that eh, these tables actually do something. lol

SO yeah, I'm calling you out on that, and after all that following your advice at least for me is going to be difficult from here on in.

After all it was HJTRBO(NATHAN) that mentioned to me in another thread that my ECT min Air multiplier was out of whack a bit and needed to be set.

Nathan has bent over backwards to help me despite the two of us getting started on the wrong foot so I will prolly respect and listen to what he says from here on in

I've tuned a couple thousand E38s at least. With very mild combos such as yours, you'd be surprised how little needs to be done, once the base tables are dialed in correctly.

[hjtrbo]

...that mentioned to me in another thread that my ECT min Air multiplier was out of whack a bit and needed to be set.

Missed that post, silly me.

Also with the cold starts I can see if your minimum air multiplier needs a massage as a separate thing...

Gave your log a decent look. Your idle is very good. I'd leave it alone.

[Allen Vos]

Just look at your charts instead over the whole idle warm up. Make a basic chart with ect, min air and dyn air. That will tell you heaps about which way the adjustments need to go. But to backup edcmat it really doesn't matter that much. I used to tune mine, now I just leave them stock.

Like this?
Dynamic vs Min Airflow.jpg

I'm assuming we want to match Min idle air flow with dynamic air flow the whole way through the warm up?

If you look at my log there just after a cold start there is almost an 8 G/S difference between Dynamic and min idle air flow for about 5-10 seconds then it becomes a more even 3 G/S until about 60 degrees Celsius of ECT, then dynamic and idle air flow are very close.

I know you said to leave it but isint 3 G/S quite a bit?

I would like to dial it in a bit better than that, so if I wanted to do that, I would increase the ECT/min air multiplier a wee bit to increase idle min air flow so that it matches dynamic?

There is also the large difference for the first 10 seconds of engine running that the Min idle air and dynamic are approx. 8 G/S apart.

Dynamic Air flow also pegs to 30 G/S and the idle comes up to 1300 RPM despite target idle being 1050 RPM.

Is there any way to fix that ? I don't like the RPM spiking up that high on cold start up not to mention you can see in the log its pulling spark like crazy to try and bring the RPM back down.

I stumbled across another post from a while back that you had given a formula for this min air vs dynamic airflow and the ECT multiplier.

I'm Interested in learning how the multiplier ties into this, so I'm going to try and track it down.

[Allen Vos]

Missed that post, silly me.



Gave your log a decent look. Your idle is very good. I'd leave it alone.

It all good, you had mentioned it being out a while back and I was balls deep in other stuff so I just decided I would put a post up about it once I got my other bugs sorted. lol

[Allen Vos]

I've tuned a couple thousand E38s at least. With very mild combos such as yours, you'd be surprised how little needs to be done, once the base tables are dialed in correctly.

Not trying to be a dick here, but no one cares how many cars you have tuned if you just come on here to brag about it and not try be very helpful to people posting their issues not to mention getting your digs in at me over things you feel I'm not doing correctly.

This is a public support forum for people wanting to learn things. You should keep that in mind when people ask questions man.

[GHuggins]

First 4ish seconds of engine run time is cranking airflow. There's also another spark table setting that's not available for how long it will run on cranking spark. It runs on the crank settings for 4ish seconds, so if you're going after a startup flare or initial after start issues then the cranking settings or tables influencing them are what you need to look at.

[edcmat-l1]

Not trying to be a dick here, but no one cares how many cars you have tuned if you just come on here to brag about it and not try be very helpful to people posting their issues not to mention getting your digs in at me over things you feel I'm not doing correctly.

This is a public support forum for people wanting to learn things. You should keep that in mind when people ask questions man.

Not trying to be a dick here, but I mentioned how many cars I've tuned so you can get an understanding of the amount of experience I have. That's called a preface. So when I tell you you're making changes that don't normally need to be made, you might get an idea that I'm not telling you that because my 1 personal car I tooned didn't need those changes, I'm telling you from hundreds if not thousands of cars.

I'm not "trying to get my digs" on you. Matter of fact, it seems like you're the one who took a shot at me with this one liner.

Do you modify anything when you tune cars? lol It seems you like to leave everything stock.

As far as offering help on a public forum, I've offered you ALOT of help by telling you, YOU DON'T NEED TO MAKE MANY OF THE CHANGES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MAKING!!!! It's not that I don't want to help or I'm not helping, it's that you don't want to hear what I have to say.

[hjtrbo]

Like this?

I'm assuming we want to match Min idle air flow with dynamic air flow the whole way through the warm up?

I know you said to leave it but isint 3 G/S quite a bit?

I stumbled across another post from a while back that you had given a formula for this min air vs dynamic airflow and the ECT multiplier.

I'm Interested in learning how the multiplier ties into this, so I'm going to try and track it down.

smokeshow pointed out the min air flow is a floor, not a target.

ect_multiplier(ect_degC) / 0.25 x min_idle_air(gear, rpm)

[Allen Vos]

First 4ish seconds of engine run time is cranking airflow. There's also another spark table setting that's not available for how long it will run on cranking spark. It runs on the crank settings for 4ish seconds, so if you're going after a startup flare or initial after start issues then the cranking settings or tables influencing them are what you need to look at.

I think these are the 2 tables you are referring too.

startup spark flare.jpg
Startup air flow.jpg

The first one is the startup flare which reduces spark. I have already multiplied that table by 2 to make the spark retard more aggressive on start up. It helped a bit but I didn't want to go anymore as I think something else may be out of whack.

Also the startup min air is just a table that increases min air flow for the first 4 seconds of engine operation.

If there is a table I am missing or something else that can help , could you point me to that please?

Looking at the log it shows a spike of 30 G/S of dynamic air flow initially then it comes back down slowly but spark is also being pulled out fairly aggressively.

Min idle air does not even kick in for almost 2 seconds.

Does this all seem normal? I don't like the RPM Flare that I see initially as its some 200 RPM over the target RPM.

It does correct itself within about 12 seconds or so.

Is there a way to reduce dynamic air on startup or what else can I do to make this better?

[Allen Vos]

smokeshow pointed out the min air flow is a floor, not a target.

ect_multiplier(ect_degC) / 0.25 x min_idle_air(gear, rpm)

OK, so thats really a good way to put it and helps one understand it.

SO min air flow or idle air flow is something we as tuners set in the charts and also with the ECT Multiplier.

So what is the relationship of dynamic air to min air flow?

I'm assuming you want dynamic air flow very close to idle air flow?

I know I can increase my ECT multiplier to get min air closer to dynamic air but is that the right way to do this?

That nasty startup flare on the dynamic air flow hits almost 30 G/S. Is this normal Nathan?

So if I am reading this correctly the formula is (ECT Degrees)/0.25 x (min Idle Air)? You also have (gear,Rpm)? Was this part of the formula?

Im just trying to understand this before I make any changes

[edcmat-l1]

I totally forgot to ask, what driveability problem are we trying to fix here? Did I miss it?

[07GTS]

a min airflow wouldnt be causing a startup flare, its either startup airflow/startup airflow OL maf, or cranking VE primary is set low

[Allen Vos]

I totally forgot to ask, what driveability problem are we trying to fix here? Did I miss it?

Are we being a smart ass here, or do you actually want to help? If you do the info is all there in the previous posts

[Allen Vos]

a min airflow wouldn't be causing a startup flare, its either startup airflow/startup airflow OL maf, or cranking VE primary is set low

If you look at the log I pic I posted Startup air flow is around 14.5 G/S. However dynamic sky rockets to 30 G/S which I don't think is right. But when you mention MAF its reading about 20 G/S and VVE is reading 24 G/S

I feel this is the reason for the RPM Flare. I'm just not sure how to tame it down?

Cranking VE Primary was set to 100% stock but everywhere I read and everyone I talked to recommended setting this to 80% across the board with the cam I have. You mentioned this being to low could cause this?

You have startup airflow OL MAF listed. Is that a separate table from the startup airflow or is that a typo? lol

Any one have any ideas how to get a handle on this?