23 Explorer boost drops up top

[turbogt46]

Whats up all?

Ive been trying to push my explorer and have got great results. But for some reason, I cant keep boost up top. I have 20-21 psi peak and hold it until about 4200 rpm then comes down to 19 until 4700 rpm. It keeps going down after that. I keep hearing that people keep 20 psi at 6000 rpm but Im only at 15 psi at 6000 rpm. Actual air load is at 1.82, desired air load at 2.22, actual torque at 323, desired torque and etc requested at 444, but my tip actual and desired are both at 197 kpa and dropping. All sources logged and all are not being limited. Also fuel rail pressure actual and demanded are always on track. It seems that TIP is the only thing holding me back.

Ive read that going through the SD stuff is the way to increase tip but have not been very successful. Any tips from anyone?

The log attached does not have rail pressure as I forgot to log it somehow, but the run every run Ive done, they have both been great.

Ford Explorer ST 3.0 2023 tip 19.hpt
Ford Explorer ST 3.0 2023 tip 19.hpl

Thanks for the help! (Im also at 5000 feet so air pressure is only 12-12.2 psi or roughly 82 kpa)

[F150Farmer]

bump up airflow limit under airflow>turbo

[CCS86]

I'm new to the Ecoboost engines, and come from a background of tuning PD blower Coyotes. I just got a '25 Explorer ST and waiting for the PCM to be supported.

Some things I find odd in your log:

- Right around 3500 rpm in each pull your throttle is closing, sometimes jumping around, despite the channels showing no limit active
- At 3600 rpm each pull the knock correction just goes totally flat like the system is offline
- Around 3500 rpm your wastegate starts to open, probably to limit boost pressure, but then even as boost pressure bleeds off, the wastegate stays open
- Ignition advance is soooo low, 1* - 4*. Is that really all these things can handle? Coming from a 2012 Mustang with 11:1 compression ratio and 15 psi of boost, I can still hit 15*+ of advance on 93 octane.

Have you made any progress since this post?

[turbogt46]

You caught a lot of things I was seeing as well over time. Short answer, no, I have not had any progress. Long answer....

I tired bumping up the turbo airflow limit ( this was laready bumped up a lot to begin with), no change. I tried to get the turbo airflow numbers to be higher to what I was seeing but not over doing it, like 10 lbs per min at every rpm, still no change.

- Right around 3500 rpm in each pull your throttle is closing, sometimes jumping around, despite the channels showing no limit active
At 3500 rpm, I believe the throttle is doing most of the work to limit the boost, I could be wrong though. This is the only thing I see that would cause this. The torque limit, IPC, truncation in trans, etc., etc., is not within reach.

- At 3600 rpm each pull the knock correction just goes totally flat like the system is offline
I don't have my laptop currently, I'm out of the house all day today but I think that is pretty normal. Zero out then start to reintroduce it.

- Around 3500 rpm your wastegate starts to open, probably to limit boost pressure, but then even as boost pressure bleeds off, the wastegate stays open
So this is part of what I have been fighting. I notice TIP desired drops which is causing TIP actual to drop, which is causing less boost. I have visted all sorts of previous posts regarding how the system works but cant figure this issue out. I have even read through the COBB ecoboost tuning and not figuring it out. I have read posts from Adam at ZFG before he figured this out and making it big, asking for help. In that post, it was stated that the key was in the first few pages of the forum, which it looks like was the VE tables (slope, offset, qaud tables). I've downloaded the spreadsheet from COBB and slowly changing those numbers, I have had mixed results, but still no boost at the top end.

- Ignition advance is soooo low, 1* - 4*. Is that really all these things can handle? Coming from a 2012 Mustang with 11:1 compression ratio and 15 psi of boost, I can still hit 15*+ of advance on 93 octane.
I have messed around with a buddies, Focus st, 3.5 F150, my 2.0 Escape and now my Explorer ST, and they all dont like a lot of timing, at least not at 20+ psi. I did have good luck at the dyno with the Focus ST running only 17 psi and running up the timing vs 22 psi and low timing. I do understand timing very well, in fact, I understand a lot about cars after 2 years of trade school for automotive, they just dont teach you how to modify cars for tuning. Although the teach you very well on how things work and why it works, such as afr, timing, power creaction, thermo/mechanical/volumetric efficeincy.

So if anyone wants to chime in, I'm all ears!

[Seishuku]

When adjusting the torque model, I'm guessing you used the calculator?
I've found that the torque inverse calculation tends to cause more issues that it help.
I'd recommend rolling back a lot of the changes and just remove the basic limits (turbo airflow, *slightly* raise LSPI, up combustion stability), probably keep driver demand and maybe just the engine torque model (keeping the inverse stock).
Then see where it logs out... It's also possible that because it's a fairly new car, HP doesn't have everything completely sorted with the parameters and things aren't changing where they should and isn't doing what you're expecting it to.

I would definitely recommend keeping popcorn enabled and LSPI tables at sane values, they're there to keep your engine safe. Kinda important on DI engines (do these engines have split injection?)

[JLawson240]

Looking at the engine brake torque numbers and comparing them to the max torque tables in the Torque management tab makes me thing that's an issue.. you can see the throttle close almost immediately after the torque number exceeds the value in those tables. I'd just make all of those max torque tables like 750 across the board, not an insane number. Also, maybe the Expected TIP table under the Airflow-Pressure control tab.

Let me know if any of that helps.

[CCS86]

Looking at the engine brake torque numbers and comparing them to the max torque tables in the Torque management tab makes me thing that's an issue.. you can see the throttle close almost immediately after the torque number exceeds the value in those tables. I'd just make all of those max torque tables like 750 across the board, not an insane number. Also, maybe the Expected TIP table under the Airflow-Pressure control tab.

Let me know if any of that helps.

On the Coyotes it is definitely important to add headroom to the TQ and inverse tables. Messing with the values is much less important. You can just continue the slope upwards to reach the new maximums.

[turbogt46]

I adjusted the torque table for the increased load that it sometimes sees. I thought it was cappedat 2.2, it will reach 2.3 load at times now. All I did was remove the 1.9 row, moved 2.2 load down where 1.9 used to be then added 2.5 by taking the difference from 1.9 to 2.2 and use the forcast formula in excel to show up to 2.5 then copied that into HP tuners. Teh yes, used the HP tuners calc to get the inverse.

These engines are only DI but I agree to the LSPI tables. I back them off when testing but put them back down when Im just driving around.

you can see the throttle close almost immediately after the torque number exceeds the value in those tables
Where do you see this? I think Im over looking that, I cant find where this is happening.

[Seishuku]

Yeah, I noticed the max torque for per gear tables too, in the same tab as the LSPI tables, there's are multiple tables for max torque per gear in there... Only one is maxed, meant to mention that as well.
I'm not sure exactly how those tables are selected, so best to max out all of them.

As far LSPI, I would do it regardless... During testing is far more likely to cause a problem than when normal driving, but that's just my opinion.

But yeah, for the torque model, just rescale the engine torque and leave the inverse alone, the inverse tables have enough head room to support loads to 2.3 or 2.4 whereas the engine torque tables do not.

[turbogt46]

Ok so.....I tried a few things as suggested.
* max torque for per gear tables are all equalized, no change to power. I was also under the impression that the engine type table is what defines which table it uses, but that might be wrong.
* LSPI changed in the lower RPM's.
* torque and inverse tables back to stock, tried a pull, then added 5% to the last row of torque table and not change the inverse
* Increased the Expected TIP table to 228 kpa

All of this resulted in a smoother power delivery but resulted in less airload as well, still boost drops down to 15 psi from 20. Here is a log file.

Explorer airflow 05.hpl

[Seishuku]

Looks like it's producing about the same torque though, timing is up... So no surprise that it feels smoother, ECU seems happier now.
Just need to get air load actual up now, it's asking for more but it's not getting it...

Could be a few other things, the turbo model might be restricting load because if it goes higher, it will put the turbos way out of their efficiency range, those parameters are in Air flow->Turbocharger->Compressor model and turbine model. Unfortunately they're quadratic equations like most of the models, so adjusting them is kinda tricky.
Could try multiplying the offset in ECM#39528 by 1.8 (+180%) and the same for ECM#39529, though usually if these are holding things back, it will show "turbo FMEM" as a limit.

Otherwise you might have to play with ECM#3634 and ECM#33513, canister pressure and duty cycle... But you'll have to be careful here as well, because changes to duty cycle will affect TIP and TIP actual and TIP desired have too big of an error, it will close the throttle. Throttle closures are normal, but you don't want to cause it even more.
I would make a suggestion for these parameters, but the newer cars use vacuum wastegates not pressure wastegates, so the logic is a little backwards from what I'm used to.
Maybe in the duty cycle table for the -10.7/-9.1/-7.6 columns multiply them by 1.2 and set -12.2 column to 0.6 and see what happens?

[Davem3261]

18 psi 9-11 degrees of timing on 93 here.Screenshot 2024-10-03 181721.png

[turbogt46]

So what am I missing to keep the boost up Davem?
Thanks.

[Rbelar21]

So what am I missing to keep the boost up Davem?
Thanks.

What does your LSPI table look like? what do your TIP tables look like? Driver Demand?

There are quite a few areas.

I have a 2.3 ranger that can hold good boost up top, but i only do it in cooler weather or with E30 as things get hot and spicy really quickly. Because of that i am "assuming" that the 3.0TT can hold more than your log shows.

I also recommend logging each cyl if the 3.0 follows that logic rather than just knock retard.

[turbogt46]

LSPI is set to 3.0 above 2500 rpm, so thats not it. TIP desired max is set to 235 kpa, Turbo TIP expected vs Inferred Turbo Airflow vs Inferred Turbo RPM is set to 228 kpa above 14 lbs per min, and driver demand is 600 tq from 3000 rpm to 4000, then 500 tq at 4500 and 450 tq after that.

You can see from the log that its asking for the torque and airload, its just not getting there though.

Also, I log knock retard because it takes the largest value from whichever cylinder is knocking, it frees up channels for me.

[Rob@HPTuners]

When dealing with the Torque model you should aim to raise everything up proportionally. EcoBoost differs from Coyote and other NA applications because it's in torque control full-time. If desired load matches actual load but desired brake tq does not match engine brake tq, you're putting the torque control logic in a tricky position. Also keep in mind that these are for MBT and that your distance from MBT is reflected in the torque reporting. The HP calculator doesn't extrapolate like this but it can be done in excel quite easily using the LINEST function.

Your indicated and scheduled torque are dropping throughout the pull, meaning that something is acting over the driver demand (typically that would present as a driver demand limit, but I'm not nuanced in these strategies quite yet). If you get the boost you are looking for, the ECM 18814 Maximum MAP might be a little close for comfort. It can clip the conversion of desired load -> desired MAP

[jakebrown617]

Did you already adjust ECM 19621 Throttle Pressure Differential? That one seems to control the conversion of Desired MAP into Desired TIP, which your Actual TIP is currently tracking very well.

[turbogt46]

I dont think Ive messed with Throttle Pressure Differential yet. I have played around with High Pressure Drop 28941 and it helped a little. I will try changing the differential in the next day or two.

@Rob, the max map is pretty far away from actual.

[Rob@HPTuners]

I dont think Ive messed with Throttle Pressure Differential yet. I have played around with High Pressure Drop 28941 and it helped a little. I will try changing the differential in the next day or two.

@Rob, the max map is pretty far away from actual.

Only looking at the first file you shared. Max Map is 34 psi, if you get the 20 psi of boost you're looking for at sea level, that would be 34.7 psi. It's probably not the source of your current issue, but it has the potential to become an issue later on. There's no harm in putting excess headroom there.

TIP is more or less holding steady. I would turn attention to why the throttle is closing and the torque request is dropping. Otherwise achieving more TIP will just close the throttle more to equalize it.

[turbogt46]

Thanks Rob. I think I understand what you're saying. With an increase in boost, it really shouldn't change tip much.

I guess the question is, with desired torque and desired load being out of reach, and the throttle closing, what is causing the throttle to close? And why is actual torque and actual air load so far away from what desired with no limiters showing up?