Edelbrock supercharged gladiator part throttle surge

[mJolnir]

Hello guys,
I have a 2020 gladiator with the Pentastar engine that had a Edelbrock supercharger installed, we tried to talk to Edelbrock to just provide the CARB tune and pay the difference in price, but since were outside the US they refuse to send us the tune.

I have been trying to do a tune on it, got the injector data from a Edebrock tune for a 2014 jeep and it was immediately 20% lean, that makes me believe that these are not the same injectors, went the tuning route of changing the injector data to match commanded instead of turning the NN off.

Now at 20% throttle it seems like im hitting a limiter or some error, at the beginning throttle torque source would go into LV2 (torque monitor) so i went into the Engine Diagnostics > General > torque correlation tables and lifted those limiters. It stopped showing the LV2 in torque source but it still behaves the same, i tried changing the throttle body airflow up and down, the small range and the large range with no change in the behavior so, now i turn into you guys for some help.

tune0.hpt This is the Stock tune
tune1 throttle surge2.hpt This is the current tune
part throttle limiter street1.hpl This is the log, in the 3rd marker you can see the problem the most clearly, it feels as surging while driving.

Should i turn the NN off and just go VE, should i try and keep working the injector data, should i go back to the injector data from that other tune and adjust the tune with the NN trainer?

[Stoopalini]

That flutter looks like it's happening right around the 1.0 PRatio range, so right when you're cruising in that area crossing into and out of boost.

You have Sensed MAP (2100) disabled though. Calculated MAP will hit a ceiling, around barometric kPa, and the PCM should switch to Sensed MAP to continue reading higher, but it isn't because you have Sensed MAP disabled.

Change 2100 from Disabled to Enabled, then set the "Sensed MAP PR Thresh" (45645) value to the PRatio value where you want the PCM to change from using calculated MAP to using Sensed MAP instead. It looks like you changed this from 0.92 to 0.85, but with the 2100 switch disabled, it's not doing anything.

I'd also add Sensed MAP to your channel listing. Probably good to add pedal and throttle channels too. Right now you seem to only have TPS voltage being logged.

[LilSick]

it is supercharged...

i would think logging a wide band sensor more important than logging sensed map lol

weird that switch is not enabled tho, yes

i would add fuel system status as well as some other pid

[KeltecRacing]

Don't know a whole lot about tuning on the 3.6s but looking at the data log and your tune I would recommend to try and smooth out the timing in that part throttle range. seems to be surging about 20 degrees.

[LilSick]

"This is the log, in the 3rd marker you can see the problem the most clearly, it feels as surging while driving"

i just looked at the tune...

the whole thing needs to be adjusted for boost.

i would disable vvt spark and redo a bunch of tables

hmu if you are interested

[Stoopalini]

The timing is oscillating because of the airflow model. He needs to fix the Sensed MAP issue 1st, and then I bet the timing will not oscillate like that anymore.

Basically, the pcm is using calculated MAP to determine air flow. But calculated map won’t read higher than baro. So when he crosses 1.0 PRatio, the engine is getting way more air than the PCM is seeing in the MAP reading. It’s probably hitting some sort of limit or validation, and trying to correct for it. Hence the timing and TPS oscillation.

[Stoopalini]

Disable VVT spark on a 3.6? Why would you do that?

My though is the dual cam setup would allow vvt and vvt spark to provide the optimal controls for a great running setup.

DAVECS1 user on this forum has some great dialed in tunes for supercharged 3.6s. He sells his tunes for a modest fee even.

His tunes are very popular with the gladiator crowd:

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/f...support.53756/

[LilSick]

My though is the dual cam setup would allow vvt and vvt spark to provide the optimal controls for a great running setup.

it would if it were naturally asperated but his isn't n/a anymore

i love vvt

supercharged or not

but trying to have different spark timing maps for different cam positions while simultaneously faking out the smogged out oem controller?

that controller was designed with efficiency and emissions in mind...

its already a big enough pain in the ass getting the timing map to look exactly how i want without the vvt spark enabled

[HaasExp]

Hello guys,
I have a 2020 gladiator with the Pentastar engine that had a Edelbrock supercharger installed, we tried to talk to Edelbrock to just provide the CARB tune and pay the difference in price, but since were outside the US they refuse to send us the tune.

I have been trying to do a tune on it, got the injector data from a Edebrock tune for a 2014 jeep and it was immediately 20% lean, that makes me believe that these are not the same injectors, went the tuning route of changing the injector data to match commanded instead of turning the NN off.

Now at 20% throttle it seems like im hitting a limiter or some error, at the beginning throttle torque source would go into LV2 (torque monitor) so i went into the Engine Diagnostics > General > torque correlation tables and lifted those limiters. It stopped showing the LV2 in torque source but it still behaves the same, i tried changing the throttle body airflow up and down, the small range and the large range with no change in the behavior so, now i turn into you guys for some help.

tune0.hpt This is the Stock tune
tune1 throttle surge2.hpt This is the current tune
part throttle limiter street1.hpl This is the log, in the 3rd marker you can see the problem the most clearly, it feels as surging while driving.

Should i turn the NN off and just go VE, should i try and keep working the injector data, should i go back to the injector data from that other tune and adjust the tune with the NN trainer?

These PUG 3.6's are much more complicated to tune than the earlier Pentastar's. There are still quite a few missing tables, so it does require a heap of work arounds to get it half reasonable.
Where are you located?
I'm currently tuning a 2020 Gladiator with a built engine and a TVS1900 running around 13-14psi boost. The part throttle surge is a pain to completely get rid of on these using a vac operated bypass valve. It can be dampened quite a bit tho.

[mJolnir]

So its still doing the surge thing i went ahead and took it to the dyno and did a little more street tuning, i read a couple of threads on the throttle tables and tried going really low on them to see if i was hitting some airflow limit.

it made 257whp and 248 lb ft, its around 153kpa peak boost thru 40" tires and 5.13 diff

tune1 throttle surge3.hpt This is the latest tune after the dyno
Part throttlestreet limiter 1.hpl this is the latest log on the street, as you can see where the three markers are together it still does the surging thing.
dyno edelbrock SC 13 257whp 248lbft.hpl This is the las dyno log, i tried moving the cam around but it lost power or knocked and lost power, i also had to desensitize the knock sensors a lot in order for it not to pull 10* all the dime i had my foot on the accelerator.

Also contacted the guy from the gladiator forums, but the tune he sent us did the same surging with a little more intensity so i just kept hammering my own tune.

[Stoopalini]

Your issue is still happening right at the 1.0 PRatio range, so when it's crossing in and out of boost.

I see you now have Sensed MAP enabled, but have the threshold set exactly to 1.0 PRatio. Try changing the "Sensed MAP PR Thresh" value (table 45645) to something below 1.0. I believe 0.96 is default, but many folks make it much lower.

I also notice you have the neural network enabled, but it's limited to 1.1299 PRatio. I would think this needs to be scaled out for the airflow model to handle positive pressure. You would use the HP Tuner's online Neural Network Trainer to do this.

What is your bypass setup? Maybe you're dealing with a mechanical problem .... I'm surprised Dave's tune would make the issue worse, as he's spent quite a bit of time dialing these in.

[LilSick]

would love to hear the logic behind this cam tune

for a supercharged application?

nfw...



i bet it is part of the airflow issue you are experiencing

[LilSick]

have you tried widening the separation angle at cruise ???

[smokeshow]

Also contacted the guy from the gladiator forums, but the tune he sent us did the same surging with a little more intensity so i just kept hammering my own tune.

Pause the hammering, mjolnir lol. If your ECM is a 2A, just like the Hellcat uses, don't you think you might want to see about utilizing some of those features that are meant to manage a supercharged engine? I see a boatload of unused features....throttle inlet pressure sensor, throttle outlet pressure (SCIAP), bypass valve control if available, intercooler pump control, etc. So long as the pins in the ECM are not occupied, it would be dumb not to try to rig in those sensors. Instead of bandaids and general disappointment, you might be able to fix the driveability issues simply by telling the ECM what is actually happening in the intake system. This holds true for every PD blower application on every engine, from all manufacturers.

[mJolnir]

would love to hear the logic behind this cam tune

for a supercharged application?

nfw...



i bet it is part of the airflow issue you are experiencing

No logic behind it, its the stock cam position, yes i did try a tune made by someone else with a different cam position but still had the same issue.

[LilSick]

No logic behind it, its the stock cam position

my cam maps for supercharged applications look nothing like your maps

the maps you posted look like they are for a naturally aspirated motor

[nhua89]

I have a 2022 Gladiator that had an Edelbrock Supercharger installed, and I obtained the right to use the HPtuner by replacing the ECM from GPEC5 to GPEC2A by changing the wiring harness. However, Edelbrook is unwilling to provide complete tunes and does not agree to provide fuel injector data, which has caused throttle surges in my car as well. This is very distressing for me and I strongly recommend JL/JT not to purchase any equipment from Edelbrook. The manufacturer's products for sale are very poor.
After more than a year of multiple attempts to modify tunes, I have roughly solved all the problems.
Firstly, you need to calibrate the fuel injector with a broadband oxygen sensor, which will solve most of your driving abnormalities. Then, modify the spark gauge to solve your knock and prevent the ECM from switching from the high octane spark gauge to the basic spark gauge. It is precisely because the knock retard causes frequent switching of the Spark table from a high octane table to a low octane table that throttle surges occur.
In addition, your MAP calibration is not correct. There are many functional options wrong in tunes.

[duster360]

I have a 2022 Gladiator that had an Edelbrock Supercharger installed, and I obtained the right to use the HPtuner by replacing the ECM from GPEC5 to GPEC2A by changing the wiring harness. However, Edelbrock is unwilling to provide complete tunes and does not agree to provide fuel injector data, which has caused throttle surges in my car as well. This is very distressing for me and I strongly recommend JL/JT not to purchase any equipment from Edelbrock. The manufacturer's products for sale are very poor.
After more than a year of multiple attempts to modify tunes, I have roughly solved all the problems.
Firstly, you need to calibrate the fuel injector with a broadband oxygen sensor, which will solve most of your driving abnormalities. Then, modify the spark gauge to solve your knock and prevent the ECM from switching from the high octane spark gauge to the basic spark gauge. It is precisely because the knock retard causes frequent switching of the Spark table from a high octane table to a low octane table that throttle surges occur.
In addition, your MAP calibration is not correct. There are many functional options wrong in tunes.

Edelbrock is not going to give you free info and tune for a completely different PCM and make them liable for a CARB/EPA emissions violation, especially if you weren't the original customer. So its makes perfect sense and doesn't make their products "very poor".

I never had to use a wideband to "calibrate the fuel injector", so that's a new one. In fact, the narrow bands do a better job for 60% of the injector scale. So the last but at WOT falls right in line with the same mg/cly/cylce slope.

What are you calling a "spark gauge" ? Do you mean Spark Table?

How are you determining that the "ECM is switching from the high octane spark gauge to the basic spark gauge"??
I had some funky stuff on a log of a 2021 and looked like Knock was pulling timing but didn't show on the log.