injection angles

[LNFnewb]

ok so i have got alot of mine moved now and it seems to pull waayyyy better with my cam adjustments and timing advance its crazy how hard this thing pulls up to redline and it just holds it and keeps going with it.

care to share any of your secrets?

[projectlnf]

care to share any of your secrets?

email address and ill email you the stuff?

you can pm me it

[LNFnewb]

email address and ill email you the stuff?

you can pm me it

pm sent!

[|V3nom|]

why not just share openly?

[projectlnf]

why not just share openly?

all right well this is what i have done so far but im still working with it it seems to run smoother im sure some of you have got close to what this is so its not to secret lol

[2000Firehawk]

Here's my file.
Just looking to improve it.
Everyone , please feel free to post your file, maybe we can all learn more,
by checking out what others have done.

I have run 12.5s @ 110+ the last 3 times out at the track.
Also it's an excellent DD...

[projectlnf]

Here's my file.
Just looking to improve it.
Everyone , please feel free to post your file, maybe we can all learn more,
by checking out what others have done.

I have run 12.5s @ 110+ the last 3 times out at the track.
Also it's an excellent DD...

didnt realize you were on e fuels lol i dono if the injection angles work with e fuels because the injector should be held open longer to support the more fuel flow. but heck give it a try!

[2000Firehawk]

all right well this is what i have done so far but im still working with it it seems to run smoother im sure some of you have got close to what this is so its not to secret lol

LOL LOL LOL
I don't even know where to start with these tables, rocket science...

Injection Angle Hom single low:
Start of injection angle during intake stroke for homogenous single
pulse mode when charge motion is below threshold.

Can someone put this into a statement that would explain what it really is, & how, & why , & which way would you move these tables, to work better for us?
I'm just really lost on this....

[projectlnf]

this is how i have it in my mind and someone correct me if im wrong lol


basic- higher the number the ealier the injection is on the 720 degree rotation
lower the number the later the injection( closer to when the spark plug ignites)

our pistons have a "cup" in the head of the piston to catch fuel so it gets spray up at the spark plug so i feel like to early would cause it to not spray in the the "cup"



kind of like that if not the same exact ^

like gmtech said put 240 in all of the injection angles and see the injection window missfires but i havent tried any higher than what i have now.. but it seems to run good! im sure injection times being earlier would be more efficient imo.

[2000Firehawk]

So this works the same way for both the low & high tables.
Why do we have a low & high table ?

[projectlnf]

So this works the same way for both the low & high tables.
Why do we have a low & high table ?

i think we can make the high tables work but i dont know how and i havent tried lol im sure someone has but we supposedly only use the low table

[LNFnewb]

i think we can make the high tables work but i dont know how and i havent tried lol im sure someone has but we supposedly only use the low table

My question is how do the two tables differ from one another. I feel we are missing a critical key to the puzzle in something that might not have been unlocked yet.

[T-Man]

According to Chris (HPT), he stated that the LNF only references the low table. Maybe we'll get lucky and he will pop his head in here though I doubt it with how busy he is

[cobaltssoverbooster]

been doing research with people running solidworks flow analysis software we have noticed two things so far with the limited time i have to colaborate with them.

1) the ramp in the intake manifold has a pretty big effect on the swirl over the top of the piston. i have a ported head done through completely to prove that alteration of the intake runner lower radius will net loss of power in up to ~15-20%
with most of the damage done on the torque side. solid works confirms the radius has an effect on this pattern. best to leave it alone unless you got deep enough pockets to explore this in solid works deeper and then transfer the dimensions to soild cad and have it 5-axis'd. (after this port job it took a total of 3 weeks on a solid state dyno testing and tuning until the power came back up to a level close to that of a factory setup)

2) there are two swirls happening in the cyinder at the same time. one is from the incoming air and the second from the injectors spray pattern. we have duplicated an event where the two swirls have formed a ball of fresh a/f charge. if properly timed the plug can ignite the mixture while its still in a decently formed sphere shape. (the cylinder will be filled with a/f mix completely but the swirl pattern is what had the spherical shape)
this could be important but we havent had time to look into it any further than only changing the events 4 times. time will show me more but i dont know when i am going to get more time to collaborate with my new extended 14-16 hr/day 5 straight days work schedual.

also a thought i havent had the chance to send in for review yet is to see if best flame propagation will occur at an event where the injector shuts off just a gnats hair before the plug fires off. if the flame propagation shows better travel characteristics then this could be the event we are aiming for when adjusting the tables. if true 2 things will occur: 1) if you change injector timing you will end up having to readjust you ignition to match the time of the events new location. this is a downside in the way of its going to take time to solve this at our current change/flash/change/flash rate. 2) we will net higher hp when newer high flow di injectors become available and bring the time required open back into the range we need at wot. cruise will be more efficient and net high mpg gains when combined with camshaft phaser adjustments.

dont know if this helps anyone....just got off a two day event with minimal sleep so i could have very well worded this very poorly. If anything, it could be a helpfull reminder that this engine setup needs to be reviewed or looked at on a deeper level to help make our desired gains.

thats all i got for now until recent personal business gets sorted out. i still like showing my interest and information for this platform and applaud those still fighting to better it. Thanks to all who are involved!

[projectlnf]

awsome man! im glad someone is trying to find this out lol

i have researched alot on DI and i know about the swirls but with out actualy knowing calculations or being able to make a drawing of the movements and stuff for this i have no clue where the best angle is.. and also pulsewidths would play a factor in this too if we are trying to get the injectors to stop right before we ignite the plug.. and i have seen they can differ from run to run but i cant wait to see someone who can come up with some kind of formula to find all this out?!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Solid works kinda does it for us in a way. It can tell us how far apart the two are then factor in piston speed based off of internal dimension, material weights and rpm ranges. Then once a full spectrum cam profile is loaded it answers most everything. The cam profiles being variable take the longest to setup and run the required computing power and time out the roof. Like I said it will take lots of time.

[projectlnf]

Solid works kinda does it for us in a way. It can tell us how far apart the two are then factor in piston speed based off of internal dimension, material weights and rpm ranges. Then once a full spectrum cam profile is loaded it answers most everything. The cam profiles being variable take the longest to setup and run the required computing power and time out the roof. Like I said it will take lots of time.

well i hope we can come up with something lol

[cstavro]

1 rpm = 360*/minute (crank degrees)
1 minute = 60,000 ms
therefore 6000 rev/minute = 6000x360*/60,000 ms = 36*/ms

so, 6 ms injection time takes 216* (36*/ms x 6 ms)

at 7000 rpm, the engine spins 42*. Injection would have to be ~5 ms for the same mass of fuel.

since the intake valve is open ~200* crank degrees, there's plenty of time for injection. The valve closes around 30*-40* ATDC (also variable with rpm & load with VVT). All I have to say is that injection timing depends on the engine dynamics.

4 valve motors have mostly tumble air motion, and very little, if any, swirl. Being a homogenous fuel mixture, and not stratified mixture (a rich ball of air/fuel within a generally lean mixture), sidi timing is not critical to ignition. timing is used so that fuel doesn't wash the cylinder walls (you have a very high pressure jet of gasoline aimed at the wall!) Apart from damaging the engine, fuel condensing on a cold wall will drop AFR.

[projectlnf]

1 rpm = 360*/minute (crank degrees)
1 minute = 60,000 ms
therefore 6000 rev/minute = 6000x360*/60,000 ms = 36*/ms

so, 6 ms injection time takes 216* (36*/ms x 6 ms)

at 7000 rpm, the engine spins 42*. Injection would have to be ~5 ms for the same mass of fuel.

since the intake valve is open ~200* crank degrees, there's plenty of time for injection. The valve closes around 30*-40* ATDC (also variable with rpm & load with VVT). All I have to say is that injection timing depends on the engine dynamics.

4 valve motors have mostly tumble air motion, and very little, if any, swirl. Being a homogenous fuel mixture, and not stratified mixture (a rich ball of air/fuel within a generally lean mixture), sidi timing is not critical to ignition. timing is used so that fuel doesn't wash the cylinder walls (you have a very high pressure jet of gasoline aimed at the wall!) Apart from damaging the engine, fuel condensing on a cold wall will drop AFR.

ok that being said.. i think there is some miss conseption on the numbers in the intake and exhasut cams.. the numbers that are in there.. are they opening at that crank degree or closing at that crank degree?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

ok that being said.. i think there is some miss conseption on the numbers in the intake and exhasut cams.. the numbers that are in there.. are they opening at that crank degree or closing at that crank degree?

They rep closing values for int and open values exh