Challenger Scatapack, Throttle delay

[bluegoat06]

Want to pick you guys brain on this one, car is 2015 Dodge Challenger Scatpack, M6, pretty much stockish
I'm having a throttle delay issue when i'm accelerating from idle at low speed, say i'm doing 6-10mph, close throttle so i'm not on the gas, the car is moving on it's own, and i give it gas quickly because i want to accelerate to gain more speed, but it takes what it seems a full second for the car to actually engage the throttle and move out...

See print screen below, i'm giving her gas right where i have the marker, look at the expected torque 324ft/lbs, actual is only 23ft/lbs, but the car has to literally think for about half second or more, before power starts flowing and the car picks up speed, which is when the actual TPS goes up, MAP goes up, etc etc, in the graph, this doesn't seem to happen if i'm actually on the throttle, for instance if i'm pressing the thottle slighty to keep the speed at 10mph, and i stab it, then things work as expected, TPS goes up and the car moves out, but on close thottle to open, there seems to be a huge delay between the time i give it gas, and the car gains speed, typically not an issue for the most part, but like yesterday i was on 3rd gear, a fool cuts me over, so i have to slightly tap on the brakes and move left, i'm doing about 25-30mph or so, and went to give her, got nothing for about a sec.

I'm attching 2 longs and my current tune

throttle_delay1 by Wrangler RSM, on Flickr

[bluegoat06]

Went ahead and loaded up my stock tune, and it does the same thing, i wanted to make sure the delay was nothing caused by things i've changed in my calibration.

[bluegoat06]

Interestingly enough, there is no delay if the car is at a complete stop, this is with my current tune, even the slighty touch on the gas makes the engine rev up, expected torque doesn't go to the 390 ft/lbs or so, before the engine revs up, it seems to follow a normal, less higher expected torque value, for instance, in this print screen, the throttle volatge is .48 and the expected torque goes up to 125ft/lbs, as i'm just pressing the gas slighty, with the car moving, even a slight press on the gas, makes the expected torque jump to 390ft/lbs or so,

stock_idle_throttle by Wrangler RSM, on Flickr

[bluegoat06]

Got this BS fixed doing a throttle relearn with the VCM scanner, Ty HPT for this wonderful tool
I'l be damned, i guess that i should have done that throttle relearn when i switched PCM's, my stock one is safely stored in a box somewhere in my garage, and the one i have now, is a used one i bought from ebay.
Couple of months ago when i did the switch, i didn't do anything especial other than clearing out some DTC's, i don't believe HPT instructions said anything on this sort either after having a new PCM reflashed with your factory calibration, never noticed any other issues but this one with the throttle being super laggy while going from close throttle to open with the car moving, now this biatch is actually very nervous whith the most minimum throttle input, i'm barely touching the gas with the car moving, and my neck will start snapping right away, lol, oh well, live to learn, and i'll keep learning from this platform.

Here are a couple of logs that show the difference, now the expected torque starts at a much lower value, and throttle input is pretty much instantaneous from close throttle to open.

throttle_afterTBrelearn by Wrangler RSM, on Flickr

[B00STJUNKY]

Got this BS fixed doing a throttle relearn with the VCM scanner, Ty HPT for this wonderful tool
I'l be damned, i guess that i should have done that throttle relearn when i switched PCM's, my stock one is safely stored in a box somewhere in my garage, and the one i have now, is a used one i bought from ebay.
Couple of months ago when i did the switch, i didn't do anything especial other than clearing out some DTC's, i don't believe HPT instructions said anything on this sort either after having a new PCM reflashed with your factory calibration, never noticed any other issues but this one with the throttle being super laggy while going from close throttle to open with the car moving, now this biatch is actually very nervous whith the most minimum throttle input, i'm barely touching the gas with the car moving, and my neck will start snapping right away, lol, oh well, live to learn, and i'll keep learning from this platform.

Glad to hear you got her worked out, and I'd like to thank you for sharing your findings on here despite not getting any responses from folks who may or may not have had input. It will surely prove helpful to someone at some point in time. Well done, sir.

[bluegoat06]

Well, i thought i got it worked out, but the stupid delay came back , it drove great for the first 3-4 min or so this afternoon when i went out to run an errant, i wanted to drive a little more spirited, so i started giving her more aggresive throttle, but without going WOT, then the throttle did something weird, like if the engine was getting a little choked upon the aggressive tip-in, then the magic of the throttle relearn went away, and now is back to boring haha, god damn it i loved it while it lasted...

It's weird, the delay acts like if there was a ramp rate controlling it,i push the gas say half inch down to illustrate the feeling, it doesn't matter how quick or slow i stab the throttle by that much, there is a death spot, then the engine comes alive and propels the car, if i push the throttle slow, then i won't complaint about the delay as the feeling while pushing the gas slolwy matches the car picking up speed, but if i give her gas quickly because i want the car to move faster, say at the same rate my foot is pushing on the gas, then the death spot is horrible, again this doesn't happen when the throttle is under load, only when i go from close throttle to open regardless of gear.

I've changed the throttle ramp rate from the factory 0.010v to 0.020v to 0.030v, then i went all balls out and set it to 5v, nothing, the throttle behaves the same.

I thought having set the flow factor min to 0.2 in the 0 sec column was perhaps related, but i've changed it back to 1 stock, did nothing.

I've played with the large/small range desired throttle, (taking 20% out of the values below 554 lb/hr), did nothing, also did the same in the throttle body airflow just for the sake of trying, did nothing.

Don't know where in the hell are the settings that control this behavior, but it felt freaking awesome right after i did the relearn, damn thing acted like if i had a cable behind the thottle for the few minutes this lasted..

[bluegoat06]

Trying this again, this time using Desired airflow - torque/airflow factor, and torque/airflow offset (data for this 2 tables come from a stock 2016 Challenger scatpack M6), along with stock desired airflow - flow factor min, and stock throttle max and ramp rate.
Loaded my new file, did another throttle relearn, and so far the throttle seems to be sticking to the magic, still is doing something that i like to tune out on the initial tip-in, but at least the car moves now, as opossed to having a damn death pedal for about half sec or more, i won't be able to test as i wanted cause it's raining, and i'm literally all over the place with the most minimal throttle input, so i'll wait before it's safe to test this in full.

Also played with the torque management - min torque offset, as the 2016 6.4 has that value stock set at 26lb/ft, and my 2015 uses 15 lb/ft instead, so i set to 26 to try, and saw my timing getting reduced everytime i was doing this little throttle stabs, trying to get the car to move, timing will go way negative pretty much everytime i tried to accelerate from close thottle, but the throttle torque source wasn't changing from pedal to anything, this seemed to be some some sort of TQ management that wasn't getting tagged as such by this PID ??, but changing this value back from 26 to 15 lb/ft, eliminated this big timing dips everytime i was giving her gas, crazy...

I'll post some logs and print screens later on if i get this to work as i wanted, so far, at least i'm not feeling this big death spots in the throttle from CT to open.

[bluegoat06]

The experiment didn't work, i think it works great after the relearn, until the throttle learns again, then it goes back to being slow on close thrttole tip-in.
I found the throttle at least to be more crispy now playing with the torque/at airflow offset, so i'll leave like this for now, this is my current 91 octane tune.

[The_Ghost]

I have an R/T and hate this issue. However, I do have the track pack and when I set to sport mode, IMSMC, it goes away. Let me experiment tonight. My track mode is set to turn off traction control and I'm wondering if that has something to do with the delay. I will report to you.

[bluegoat06]

Ty Ghost, I?ve made changes again, setting all throttle settings back to stock, then setting the ramp rate to 0.020, and simply making a tiny bit of change in the min flywheel torque in the driver demand section, my 2nd gear appears to bark a lot longer now, still can?t roast my tires in 1st gear from a 20mph roll stab, which is messed up considering the motor is advertised at 485hp, and the final ratio is 3.90, I?ll see if I have time to play in the driver demand section tomorrow.

[arottmann]

Ty Ghost, I?ve made changes again, setting all throttle settings back to stock, then setting the ramp rate to 0.020, and simply making a tiny bit of change in the min flywheel torque in the driver demand section, my 2nd gear appears to bark a lot longer now, still can?t roast my tires in 1st gear from a 20mph roll stab, which is messed up considering the motor is advertised at 485hp, and the final ratio is 3.90, I?ll see if I have time to play in the driver demand section tomorrow.

mine does the same 2016 M6 scat. its in there deliberately to dull the feel of the car. i havent unlocked my pcm but the hemifever tune that they sell in the diablo tuner eliminates it. so it can be done. the delay kills me feel shitty. ill keep following this good luck with it

[smokeshow]

Sounds like an active buck routine. What did the new PCM come out of? If it's from a different vehicle or same vehicle with slightly different hardware configuration and you can't edit those buck calibrations, you may be stuck with that throttle response. Did this happen with the original PCM?

[bluegoat06]

^, Yes the PCM came from another car, bought it used from Ebay, i think a 5.7 challenger if i remember correctly, but it's the same part# from the one i had originally.
Don't know if the original PCM did this, i know it sounds crazy, but never really had a situation where i needed to check for this particular conditions, and now i'm too lazy to switch it to try, Arottman 2016 M6 scatpack does the same per Post#11, and he's stll running the factory untuned PCM, so i doubt that my Original PCM will behave differently.

[[email protected]]

Also played with the torque management - min torque offset, as the 2016 6.4 has that value stock set at 26lb/ft, and my 2015 uses 15 lb/ft instead, so i set to 26 to try, and saw my timing getting reduced everytime i was doing this little throttle stabs, trying to get the car to move, timing will go way negative pretty much everytime i tried to accelerate from close thottle, but the throttle torque source wasn't changing from pedal to anything, this seemed to be some some sort of TQ management that wasn't getting tagged as such by this PID ??, but changing this value back from 26 to 15 lb/ft, eliminated this big timing dips everytime i was giving her gas, crazy...

Interesting and thanks for sharing! I haven't tried this but it is good to know for future reference. I don't know the resolution to your current initial tip-in issue but here are some things I would try:
1. If during the tip-in you spark is dropping too much notate the aircharge and rpm then set the "Tq reduction" under "Minimum Spark" to a value higher. I see you have already raised it from stock but maybe go positive in the problem areas?
2. Notate your engine over vehicle speed (NVO) and "Pedal V"in the problem area and modify this area in your Driver Demand/Power % Request Mode 5" table. I did notice that in this tune that below 100(NVO) and Pedal V below 1.1V that the pedal % drops slightly. I believe that this is stock but try raising it if this happens to be the area where you are feeling the current tip-in issue.

Thanks for sharing your findings!

[bluegoat06]

Thanks Mike, i'll get back to testing this in a couple of days,i was recoverying from Bronchitis, so i wasn't going out much.

[[email protected]]

Thanks Mike, i'll get back to testing this in a couple of days,i was recoverying from Bronchitis, so i wasn't going out much.

Hope you feel better! Bronchitis stinks. Fortunately you left coast folks in the south can keep your shop doors open in the winter

[bluegoat06]

Back in action, and finally i'll be able to go back to hitting the bags at the Gym woo wooo

In any case, i was playing with this drive demand tables, and learned a couple of things about them, they control pedeal feeling, or least to a point, i used a very similar approach to the hellcat tables, where allt the driver modes are configured the same, and i noticed the difference between Normal and sport throttle was gone after making all this tables the same. In the challenger Scatpack calibration, Normal mode seems to have a more relaxed throttle response, Sport feels more aggresive, and you can tell the differecen between Normal and Sport just pushing the button, say i'm doing 40-50mph in 6th gear in normal, and i Go to sport mode, i'll inmeditaly feel the car accelereating more, just like if i was giving her more gas, i lost this throttle feeling when i made all the tables the same, i can hear the active exhaust working the same, but there is no difference in throttle with all the tables the same.

I also think Mode # 2 is Sport, just because that one seems to be one setup more aggresivellly than the other tables. Mode 7 could be Valet mode, though in stock trim i don't have the option to enable that mode the in the Pages thing, i think that is available only in the SRT trim only ? though i guess could use teaser to enable that feature.

I've also downloaded the newest 3.7.1196 version today, and apparently i saw another post here when HPT said they're now logging what mode is in use. i'll confirm that today, hopefully and see how i could better use that visibility to make Sport mode even better.

I'm also reporting no changes in the way the car accelerates in 1st gear, like i want this biatch to roast the tires in 1st gear at say 3000rpm, and nothing, its like my all season 275/40/20 tires are acting as damn drag radials, or there is a TM feature still in play that won't allow me to make a smoke fest at 3000rpm with traction control fully off (pressing the TC buttoms for about 6 sec), i'm going a little sideways when i do a 1st to 2nd WOT shift, but my god, i know with 485hp out this big 6.4L engine, that i should be able to make this tires scream for their life, and that's not happpening , granted, if i pop the clutch out from a dead stop at say 3500rpm, then the car won't move spinning them all the way to redline, why i can't make the same thing happen from a 1st gear roll at the same rpm is beyond me now, and i've tried many different things. Dear Dodge TM

I'll continue to play with this tables and see what else i can get out of them.

[GHuggins]

Electronic Throttle - Max demanded throttle - make 3.8v from idle up / throttle body model - airflow - multiply by .75ish / Engine Diag - General - Torque Delta - set to 1300ish Nm / Torque Delta Fault - set to 1300ish Nm / Add timing in lower rpm areas all the way through higher engine loads

This should help you out...

[bluegoat06]

Huggins, Ty for the tips, i've set the Throttle - Max demand throttle to 3.8 all the way across, and also played with the Throttle body model /airflow, before, making smaller by .25 if i remember, none of this did nothing for my cause. throttle body table maybe helped making the thottle a a tiny bit crispier, but it may have been in my imaginiation, if i'm not roasting the tires on a 3000-3500rpm roll in 1st gear, i know the settings are not working, and changing those values did nothing to fix my issue. i've also set the sonic table, which in thw new beta version is now engine / electronic throttle - corrections - min-phi, making the 1st cell a number samller than 1, (i know somebody else asked me to change that to see if it would help), and that also did nothing. fact is, the car seems to at least be ripping the tires off only during a 1st-2nd WOT shift, with stock values in all this tables, something that before it'll barely do, now it's consistent with all this values stock, only thing i've changed is ramp rate from 0.01 to 0.02, i've changed even this ramp rate to 5V, nothing, acceleration rate ddin't change one bit making that value 5.

I haven't tried changing those values in engine diag -general torque, fact i didn't even know this existed until now, i can give that a try.

[bluegoat06]

And changing those torque settings (to 965ft/lbs) in my case did nothing.