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Thread: typical fuel to wall impact increase for Siemens Deka 80lb injectors

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    short answer is yes thats how you interpret the error feedback.

    yes you can tune the offsets this way. ive done it a few times against my own recommendations when running unknown injectors with no readily available data on 1:1 regulator systems.
    i measure the injector flow of one injector in cc at the desired rail pressure. this gives you cc/seconds. you can then convert this data to cc/min or lb/hr and enter this into the base flow IFR chart.
    testing the IFR rate you add 10 % to a tuned in ve table. if the error reports back -15% then you need to remove some trim from the offset table. basically the multiplier is adding too much to the base flow and causing an over-fuel event.
    same but in reverse for going -5% after adding 10% fuel to base.

    occasionally i got a set that doesnt want to go along with this method and i apply a technique thats probably not going to make people happy but it does work fairly well as a last resort when sending injectors out for flow testing isnt an option.
    set the voltage modifier to 0 from 13v to max volt. then upload voltages from a similar injectors flow data for voltages below 13v.
    from here i tune the ve in at idle and monitor the system voltage.
    i create a histogram that plots afr error against system voltage in the same format as the voltage modifier table.
    i start recording the idle and then pull the alternator plug which slowly drops the system voltage since the alternator is now not supplying any charge source. i keep doing this until the system voltage gets to 10v which is where i call it quits so i dont kill system components like say the battery, ignition coils, injector coils. leave the voltage offset data from below 10v as the data you swapped in from a similar set.

    the idea behind this is if you tell the ecu the injector flows the IFR rate at fully charged then this is where its going to be when you drive assuming all is well. to do this the voltage multiplier is 0 which means there is no flow offset to the IFR table. Most batteries are 6 cell batteries measuring 12.6 volts at full charge which means each cell is 2.1 volts. if a cell drops then it usually shorts an adjacent one out unless you have a spiral cell battery like an optima which keeps them isolated. if an optima shorts a cell then it drops to a max voltage of roughly 10.5 volts, but for most people the standard battery can take out 2 cells which drops the max voltage output to 8.4. this is why you cant start your car when the battery shits itself. most starters need a bare minimum of 10 volts supply (unloaded, no current flowing) to start a battery because they can drop that source 2 volts or more when loaded by the starter. Since the voltage at failure drops below a safe tune-able spot your going to end up fixing the problem before you ever need to run for a substantial period of time requiring that low voltage offset to be correct. now some may say the voltage does vary at startup when the vehicle sits for long periods of time or just over night. to counter that, calibrating to 10 volts allows the system to micro drain over time and still run accurate enough to allow the charge system to pick back up during run time.

    I will mention again that this technique is fairly crude and isn't recommended unless your at the very end of all other options, so dont be like i should do this first then work it out. No! i still recommend sending them out for flow testing first, finding a similar data set to test second, and then last chance this way for a possible hail marry.
    Thank you very much for taking the time to write this out.

  2. #22
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    Siemens Deka 80lbs Injector Data Fl114992
    I forgot I had this anyways I'm sure not what the injector slopes are for
    FI114992.jpgFI114992cs.jpg
    Last edited by chevyrules2; 02-22-2018 at 08:24 PM.

  3. #23
    So I put a bunch of different data together. I have my current data, The data I got from my friend Jason, from the ls1tech injector sticky, and then 3 different sloppy tunes from the cabinet.

    The ones "frank falcone 550whp 14psi pumpgas 60e p59 80s.hpt" and "SM 4.8 Valvesprings 80lb 76mm turbo 3bar OS (fairmont3).hpt" seem to have rather consistent data except for the IFR. I will use these 2 for the Short Pulse Limit, Short Pulse Adder, Min Inj Pulsewidth, Default Inj Pulsewidth, and the offset table.

    Here is the sheet.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by chevyrules2 View Post
    Siemens Deka 80lbs Injector Data Fl114992
    I forgot I had this anyways I'm sure not what the injector slopes are for
    FI114992.jpgFI114992cs.jpg
    There is an excel spreadsheet bouncing around somewhere that allows you to input the slope data and it calculates the tables for you. Looks like it used to be in the help section but the link does not work. If you can find the excel spreadsheet that data is what we need.

    I have one for the megasquirt computers but the tables it output are different.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.3LS10 View Post
    There is an excel spreadsheet bouncing around somewhere that allows you to input the slope data and it calculates the tables for you. Looks like it used to be in the help section but the link does not work. If you can find the excel spreadsheet that data is what we need.

    I have one for the megasquirt computers but the tables it output are different.
    Is this the excel file your talking about?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by chevyrules2 View Post
    Is this the excel file your talking about?
    looks like it but after I input the data the tables are not updating so not sure if it is broke or I am doing something wrong. Ill play with it a little more and see if I can figure it out.

    <EDIT> Nevermind I am an idiot, didn't realize the last tab has the data already added. It seems to be broken though. Maybe because I am using open office and not excel the formulas are not working 100%.
    Last edited by 5.3LS10; 02-22-2018 at 09:34 PM.

  7. #27

  8. #28
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    The slope format is Ford flow formatting. Generally speaking it takes a good amount of math to convert it over to gm flow formatting which is why the file is floating around. No one wants to do the conversion by hand.

  9. #29
    I ran out of time today to take it for a drive. I need to get it inspected so had to focus on other stuff. Maybe tomorrow.

  10. #30
    Thanks cobalt for explaining that.
    Looked at the spread sheet 5.3ls10 it's funny how some of the data us really close between ones that have flow rates way different. I can try to go over sloppys builds tonight and see is he is using a stock fpr for them and if they are returnless or not. I would think can get a close idea on what the fuel pressure is.

  11. #31
    Duh. The fuel pressure would only effect the IFR not the other data. Looks like short pulse limit is pretty steady around 3.9xx. I wish I wasn't sick and the snow would go away so I can test some stuff out

  12. #32
    Well I tried the new injector data and it would barely run, so I am guessing either my VE table is way off or something else. I had to take it around the block to work on some other issues with false knock so put the old tune back in it. I will try during the week to rework the VE table with the new data.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.3LS10 View Post
    Well I tried the new injector data and it would barely run, so I am guessing either my VE table is way off or something else. I had to take it around the block to work on some other issues with false knock so put the old tune back in it. I will try during the week to rework the VE table with the new data.
    What injector data did you use? If you post your tune I can look at it. By the way I calculated the injector data from the 2 data sheets I posted and so far I'm not have any of the issues that I had before. The Injector data I calculated is for 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure and lowest I could get the regulator to go was 46 psi and I can post my tune if you'd like

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by chevyrules2 View Post
    What injector data did you use? If you post your tune I can look at it. By the way I calculated the injector data from the 2 data sheets I posted and so far I'm not have any of the issues that I had before. The Injector data I calculated is for 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure and lowest I could get the regulator to go was 46 psi and I can post my tune if you'd like
    That is great you are making progress with your setup! Sure please post your tune so I can take a look.

    Attached is my tune file.

    I updated the offset, short pulse limit, short pulse adder, min inj pulse, and def inj pulse to use the data that was the same between 2 of the sloppy cabinet tunes.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.3LS10 View Post
    That is great you are making progress with your setup! Sure please post your tune so I can take a look.

    Attached is my tune file.

    I updated the offset, short pulse limit, short pulse adder, min inj pulse, and def inj pulse to use the data that was the same between 2 of the sloppy cabinet tunes.
    Attached is the excel file for Fl114992 I used all set at 43.5 psi When I get time sometime today I'll put all of it in excel. It looks like your short pulse adder is pretty close to what I have mine set at. It looks like your injector flow rate is set a little low
    Attached Files Attached Files

  16. #36
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    Siemens Deka Fl114992 80lbs Injector 43.5 psi.xls

    Here's the injector data that I'm using if you have any questions let me know.

  17. #37
    Should the min inj pulsewidth and default pulsewidth be .599 I stead of .5927?

  18. #38
    Thanks for sharing that too I bet it took some time to work out

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=dmaxs10;516586]Should the min inj pulsewidth and default pulsewidth be .599 I stead of .5927?[/QUOTE
    Yes but if you set it at .599 it'll change it slightly at least in my case. For the min fuel milligrams you divide the min injector pulse width by 31.124308 that was how iI came up with 0.019

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmaxs10 View Post
    Thanks for sharing that too I bet it took some time to work out
    It took me a couple of days to figure it out. I was actually at work when it hit me haha