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Thread: Tow tune attempt, tune review

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    My pilot timing looks like it goes to zero as well, even says zero in the tables but that?s not what it actually does. Can?t remember where the table value starts at, might be 18* but that is ahead of main injection. I set mine at TDC and if main gets too close it just gets pushed higher by the main event but doesn?t matter as by that point pilot is off anyways.
    Last edited by Jim P; 07-22-2019 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #22
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    So i Have made several revisions so far and everyone feels better. Staying away from the pilot until i wrap my head around it a little more. My goal remains unchanged, lower egts. So far I have almost a 150 degree reduction. one thing I am having trouble with is the high idle. I have it enabled but it does not activate, am I overlooking a limitation somewhere or is it unavailable on the 05 model year. thanks

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Manual high idle? Which really is PTO control. Push in your e-brake pedal, turn cruise on and press the ?set? button.
    Last edited by Jim P; 07-25-2019 at 07:19 PM.

  4. #24
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Oh you have a manual so you also need to run a wire from pin#22 on the forward ecm connector to ground. The setting e-brake might just be automatics, can?t remember.

  5. #25
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    That would explain why it's not working thank you. Mpg has gone from 15 - 18.👍thanks again for your help.

  6. #26
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    tune update

    Hello fellow tuners,

    So over the last couple of months I have been dabbling and scratching my head in being both successful and stumped. I have finally decided to move onto the pilot side of timing. The changes I have made are a result of reading and comparing. If someone could please take a peek at this most recent tune and critique it, I would greatly appreciate it. Please pay mind to the pilot especially, as I am the most unsure of whether or not I am headed in the correct direction. I have not loaded it yet. since I thought it prudent to await approval or homework.05 5.9 manual tow tune(modified pilot timing, added fuel).hpt

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Loading and testing is the best way to find how it runs and if like it or not

  8. #28
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    agreed, I have to put my time in. I was just hoping for a headsup on whether or not im going to blow up my motor.

  9. #29
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    I?m traveling so I can?t actually download and see what you did

  10. #30
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    I cant thank everyone enough for their time and valuable input. It has allowed me to excel my knowledge much more rapidly than expected.

    I do have a question, and hopefully someone can point me in the correct direction for information. Iam trying to get an understanding on tuning for heavy loads. Ultimately im looking for the safety window for timing in low rpm with a heavy load in tow. i like the concept of basing my timing maps off of the completion time the injection event. Does anyone have some insight on to what to stay away from and what to favor. thank you. my original plan was to start with a EOI time of 12 degrees ATDC under 1800 rpms, then base the timing off of that, and modify to control heat and spool. GOOD/BAD idea?

  11. #31
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad151 View Post
    I cant thank everyone enough for their time and valuable input. It has allowed me to excel my knowledge much more rapidly than expected.

    I do have a question, and hopefully someone can point me in the correct direction for information. Iam trying to get an understanding on tuning for heavy loads. Ultimately im looking for the safety window for timing in low rpm with a heavy load in tow. i like the concept of basing my timing maps off of the completion time the injection event. Does anyone have some insight on to what to stay away from and what to favor. thank you. my original plan was to start with a EOI time of 12 degrees ATDC under 1800 rpms, then base the timing off of that, and modify to control heat and spool. GOOD/BAD idea?
    Middle of combustion process you want around a couple degrees after top dead center. Of course many things affect where you would have SOI to achieve that.

  12. #32
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    RPM Crank angle (Degrees / ms)
    1000--------- 6
    1500--------- 9
    2000 ------------12
    2500 ------------15
    3000 ------------18
    3500 ------------21

  13. #33
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    RPM Crank angle (Degrees / ms)
    1000--------- 6
    1500--------- 9
    2000 ------------12
    2500 ------------15
    3000 ------------18
    3500 ------------21
    Correct for crank angle degrees travelled at those rpms.

  14. #34
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    One wants to be careful injecting too late in the cycle, heat rapidly drops after TDC, inject too late and you can end up with incomplete combustion resulting in smoke, flame front trying to catch up with a moving piston that it?ll never reach, potentially damaging heat during the power stroke. On the other side too far advanced timing can result in combustion happening way too early during the compression stroke resulting in large pressure spikes before TDC has been reached causing exponentially larger negative net torque (trying to turn the engine backwards), which can result in connecting rods peaking out the bottom of the oil pan.

    The higher the RPM the higher ignition delay resulting in the need for more advanced timing to keep the peak of the combustion event where wanted. Higher rail pressures give shorter ignition delay but also give a more rapidly burning and shorter lived combustion event, needing less timing advance. Higher boost produces more heat in the cylinder which shortens ignition delay, needing less timing advance. Many things affect when to begin injection and will take lots of experimenting to find the happy spot.

    For how many crank angle degrees the ignition delay period can cover, if we assume 1600rpms and 1ms ignition delay time, that?s 9.6 crank angle degrees the piston has moved by the time auto-ignition occurs.

    Don?t get too crazy with it and I wouldn?t shoot for an EOI of 12*ATDC at full load under 1800rpms either. The world is dynamic and constantly changing and the engine operating characteristics isn?t linear, setting it to behave in a linear fashion doesn?t produce that great of results.

  15. #35
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Let?s say you are trying to inject 3200us worth of fuel at 3500rpm on a stock injector. Neglecting electro/mechanical delays, the piston will have traveled 67.2 crank angle degrees by the end of that 3200us.

    This is where larger injectors come in for more power and keeping things clean (so long as air requirements are met). They require less crank angle degrees to inject the same amount of fuel which in turn can result in less timing advance needed to keep things where they need to be.
    Last edited by Jim P; 11-01-2019 at 12:09 PM.

  16. #36
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    Ok all great information. I was using the 12 degrees after top dead center for my point of injector fire termination to prevent as a little of a chance of trying to detonate before tdc.
    Doing this has netted me positive results, minus a little more smoke that I'm working on.

    Not to sound ungrateful for the information. But I fail to see how this information helps though.
    Unless I'm missing it. From what I'm gathering there really isnt a way to know what's too much timing under low load until something breaks?

    I hope I dont come across as someone looking for a handout. I am really enjoying the learning and understanding of all of this. Just cant really afford to rebuild my motor at this point. Sorry for long message. And iam hand calculating all my timing based off of degrees traveled per Injection event. Not using a timing calculator.

  17. #37
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Timing too far one way or the other can and will lead to smoke. Too far retarded timing can lead to incomplete combustion and potential excessive heat that leads to melting parts, can lead to overspeeding a turbo which can cause other issues. Basically you don?t want a slow burning flame front trying to catch up to a piston that?s moving faster than what the slower flame front from combustion can move and have much of the heat and flame carrying into the exhaust stroke, you want to keep as much of the combustion in the bowl of the piston as you can with minimal negative torque as you can.

  18. #38
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    There is zero magic number as to when your SOI and EOI should occur as well. Like there is no rule saying SOI and EOI must occur at certain points for optimal results for specific rpms and fueling. The goal is to find the point of maximizing torque yield from the fuel injected with minimal negative torque produced.
    Last edited by Jim P; 11-07-2019 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad151 View Post
    Ok all great information. I was using the 12 degrees after top dead center for my point of injector fire termination to prevent as a little of a chance of trying to detonate before tdc.
    Doing this has netted me positive results, minus a little more smoke that I'm working on.

    Not to sound ungrateful for the information. But I fail to see how this information helps though.
    Unless I'm missing it. From what I'm gathering there really isnt a way to know what's too much timing under low load until something breaks?

    I hope I dont come across as someone looking for a handout. I am really enjoying the learning and understanding of all of this. Just cant really afford to rebuild my motor at this point. Sorry for long message. And iam hand calculating all my timing based off of degrees traveled per Injection event. Not using a timing calculator.
    A timing calculator does exactly what you're doing when you say you're hand calculating based of engine speed. I personally think Fuel pressure is actually more important than crank degrees traveled because it affects two things, how quickly the fuel enters the combustion chamber and how well it is atomized. Both of which play big roles in flame travel speed. Higher pressure will Atomize better thus burning faster and keeping the flame inside the piston bowl, on top of the ignition delay being shorter because of the quicker injection rate at the higher pressure. There are only two ways to get a "perfect Tune". A, on a dyno, or B using a cylinder traducer AKA monitoring cylinder pressure. If you're seeing smoke something isn't happy, no matter how "perfectly" you've timed you injection on paper.

  20. #40
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
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    Exacery. There are limits to using higher pressure as well though when aiming for efficiency. Lots of lab study papers out there to read on that that show there are thresholds where higher pressure begins to produce diminishing efficiency. This is where reduced rail pressure in the cruise region typically produces better mpg on the 5.9. The stock rail pressure in the cruise region on these trucks has more to do with meeting emissions requirements mandated at the time of manufacturing than economy and efficiency. Everything is a fine balance. My old 05 I had it down to +3BTDC main timing in the highway cruise region, running 3-5psi boost, turbo wasn?t overspooling, very little throttle required to maintain speed, rail pressure between 12.5-14.5kpsi, with average of 19.5-20mpg