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Thread: shift points

  1. #1
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    shift points

    i have raised the rpm limit in both the ecu and tcu. i have adjusted every shift table i can find but i can not get my car to shift higher than 6200-6400. can someone please advise what tables need to be adjusted to raise the redline and shiftpoints? please and thank you.

  2. #2
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    I'm not an expert, but I suspect you'l get more help if you tell what car + engine + transmission you have.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELaw View Post
    I'm not an expert, but I suspect you'l get more help if you tell what car + engine + transmission you have.

    2012 audi a7 3.0t zf8 transmission

  4. #4
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    so the shift pattern tables are in output shaft speed(OSS) not rpm like i thought. you have to used the gear ratio for each gear and multiply it by the shift rpm you want. so to get it to shift at 7000 rpms in first gear, you take 7000/4.7143 and you get 1485. you then put the 1485 in the 1>2 cell(s) for the throttle % you want it to shift at 7000 in. you have to do this for each gear and driving mode table. it takes time but the end result is amazing! now i am trying to figure out how to keep the boost bypass valve from opening during WOT. if anyone knows or has an idea, please fill me in. there is not a whole lot of info out there on how to tune audis. so any help we can pass to each other, the better.

  5. #5
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    Hi I'm experiencing a similar issue. Funny enough, I also have a 2012 Audi A7 with the ZF8 transmission. (I have an APR tune that provides spark and fuel up to 7450rpm)

    Using vcm scanner, I confirmed the shift profiles the car is in while during in S mode, it is "aggression 3". I then went and raised all the shift OSS speeds (for 90-100.4% throttle) in aggression 3 by ~ 6% (to make redline at 6700rpm) yet the car still up shifts at the factory ~6400 rpm every time.

    I realize that the table is in OSS speeds, not engine rpm, so I simply increased values by 6%, yet nothing happens. Any ideas?

    I'd love to discuss the audi ZF8 tune further; there is very little on the forums for Audi's.

    Thanks

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodepic View Post
    Hi I'm experiencing a similar issue. Funny enough, I also have a 2012 Audi A7 with the ZF8 transmission. (I have an APR tune that provides spark and fuel up to 7450rpm)

    Using vcm scanner, I confirmed the shift profiles the car is in while during in S mode, it is "aggression 3". I then went and raised all the shift OSS speeds (for 90-100.4% throttle) in aggression 3 by ~ 6% (to make redline at 6700rpm) yet the car still up shifts at the factory ~6400 rpm every time.

    I realize that the table is in OSS speeds, not engine rpm, so I simply increased values by 6%, yet nothing happens. Any ideas?

    I'd love to discuss the audi ZF8 tune further; there is very little on the forums for Audi's.

    Thanks
    you are part way there you need to change the tables and aggression 3 and then also changed the tables 25 and 27 that's manual mode and sport mode and also change them from 80% up because your vehicle will never see 90 to 100% throttle in most cases so you have to change it a little lower on the table

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    you are part way there you need to change the tables and aggression 3 and then also changed the tables 25 and 27 that's manual mode and sport mode and also change them from 80% up because your vehicle will never see 90 to 100% throttle in most cases so you have to change it a little lower on the table
    You need to log to figure out which shift pattern tables to use for your vehicle, Mine uses 27 & 40 for manual and 3 & 8 for sport mode (yes it probably uses more tables under different conditions but this is what i have seen is mostly used for mine) i have seen others that use different tables depends on sw version in your transmission.

    oss to rpm table attached


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    you are part way there you need to change the tables and aggression 3 and then also changed the tables 25 and 27 that's manual mode and sport mode and also change them from 80% up because your vehicle will never see 90 to 100% throttle in most cases so you have to change it a little lower on the table
    Good catch! I thought I read somewhere that 100.4% throttle was after you click the button at the end of the gas pedal, but after logging I noticed that I indeed wasn't hitting 90% throttle. Unfortunately I still cannot get it to shift higher, even when adjusting the > 79.9% rows.

    For me when I'm in manual mode, vcm scanner says thats mode 27. What is 25 used for?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bb-tt View Post
    You need to log to figure out which shift pattern tables to use for your vehicle, Mine uses 27 & 40 for manual and 3 & 8 for sport mode (yes it probably uses more tables under different conditions but this is what i have seen is mostly used for mine) i have seen others that use different tables depends on sw version in your transmission.

    oss to rpm table attached

    I've noticed (using vcm scanner shift ID parameter) that I am in mode 8 and 13 for sport mode. However when I change these modes, they still don't go above ~6400rpm.

    I have changed profiles 3, 8, 13, 18, 23 (all of the 'aggression 3' tables) both for variant 0 and variant 1, as well as 25 and 27 to have the same upshift table past 79.9%:
    Capture.PNG

    However unfortunately it still auto upshifts at ~6300rpm. Here is a screenshot of VCM Scanner just before I hit redline:
    Capture 2.PNG
    It looks like all criteria should be met? I am in shift mode 8 which had the shift table as seen in the first pic. Plus my throttle position is larger than 79.9%. Not sure what the issue is here

    Attached is my .hpt file if it is easier to look at than photos.
    TCM limit 7500, map 3 8 13 18 23 25 27 6900rpm redline.hpt

    Let me know if you guys have any ideas! Thanks so much :)

  10. #10
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    Another question I had is, what does the "OSS Limits" tables do? Perhaps they could be limiting the output speed, hence why I keep upshifting at ~6400RPM?
    Capture 3.PNG

    And while we're at it, would one of you mind giving a quick explanation of driver types and accel factors? (what they are, when you'd change their mappings, etc). Thanks so so much!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodepic View Post
    Another question I had is, what does the "OSS Limits" tables do? Perhaps they could be limiting the output speed, hence why I keep upshifting at ~6400RPM?
    Capture 3.PNG)

    And while we're at it, would one of you mind giving a quick explanation of driver types and accel factors? (what they are, when you'd change their mappings, etc). Thanks so so much!
    yes change those tables to the same numbers as your other tables shift points. also i would change the 2-3 shift to around 7200rpms (2291). that way you should hit 60mph in 2nd gear before the shift. it will help with your 0-60mph time. raise your "stall" under tq management to around 750. that should get you up to around 3000-3200 rpms when using max mode. as for the driver types and accel factors, iirc i read somewhere that they are assigned to you by the computer system and you have no control over which one you get put into. i could be wrong but i have never changed mine.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    yes change those tables to the same numbers as your other tables shift points. also i would change the 2-3 shift to around 7200rpms (2291). that way you should hit 60mph in 2nd gear before the shift. it will help with your 0-60mph time. raise your "stall" under tq management to around 750. that should get you up to around 3000-3200 rpms when using max mode. as for the driver types and accel factors, iirc i read somewhere that they are assigned to you by the computer system and you have no control over which one you get put into. i could be wrong but i have never changed mine.
    Okay, thanks! I'm not quite sure how to interpret this table. The description of "OSS Limits: Max engine speed" given by VCM editor is "OSS Limit for Maximum Engine Speed Limit, Variant 0: The output shaft speed limits to prevent engine overspeed when desired.". Instead of throttle % on the Y axis like the shift timing tables, this one has "Engine Speed Limit (RPM)". So what is it that this table is configuring? Are we just telling the transmission that if I don't want my engine to go above 7000rpm, don't allow the output shaft to exceed 7000rpm (in 6th)? To me it looks like this table is more so correlating OSS speeds to engine speeds, rather than actually limiting either. Although I'm probably wrong. In fact I hope I am cuz then I can get this tuned properly! Any ideas what this table actually does / what I should chage it to? Below is the stock configuration for this table:
    Capture 4.PNG

    Regarding the shift RPM, for now I'm keeping it low (to about 6700-6900) just to verify I can change things at will, and I know how to do things. Once I have things figured out, I'll make the switch to Redline 5w40 oil (to help with the extra wear from higher rpm) and raise my redline to 7200 for both 1st and second. Maybe other gears too if I want to go to the drag strip haha! Also thanks for the tip regarding stall speed, that was going to be my next question lol. This value of 750, what unit is that / what is it measuring? Is that the torque created by the torque converter while launching in nm? If so that's a lot! (But I imagine it would be incredibly fast!)

    Also I can't express how thankful I am that you guys are replying, there is just about zero information on tuning these audi ZF8s lol. So thanks for your help!

  13. #13
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    D puts you in aggression 1 and 2 and your aggression score will be 0-400

    S puts you in aggression 3 and 4 and your aggression score will be 400-800

    your aggression score will determine which maps it uses. it will also do a % blend between maps.
    000-200 is agg 1
    201-400 is agg 2
    401-600 is agg 3
    601-800 is agg 4

    there's 5 maps in each aggression category. they're for acceleration values 0-4. I like to think of it as load. 0 is decell. 4 is WOT uphill.

    additionally
    map 30-31 are used during warmup
    maps 34-38 and 41-45 are used during cruise control
    maps 27 and 40 are for manual mode with auto upshift
    maps 46 and 47 are for manual with no auto upshift

    for more info read this

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...se-for-updates

    I've requested a stock RS6/7 file from Steve. They have the same trans as us, so I think it will be a great base to start tweaking. Especially from a timing and pressure point.
    Last edited by ed1380; 06-26-2020 at 09:46 AM.

  14. #14
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    Hey if it helps any, here is a stock 2016 RS7 tune including the transmission, that I found here on the forums a while back.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ed1380 View Post
    D puts you in aggression 1 and 2 and your aggression score will be 0-400

    S puts you in aggression 3 and 4 and your aggression score will be 400-800

    your aggression score will determine which maps it uses. it will also do a % blend between maps.
    000-200 is agg 1
    201-400 is agg 2
    401-600 is agg 3
    601-800 is agg 4

    there's 5 maps in each aggression category. they're for acceleration values 0-4. I like to think of it as load. 0 is decell. 4 is WOT uphill.

    additionally
    map 30-31 are used during warmup
    maps 34-38 and 41-45 are used during cruise control
    maps 27 and 40 are for manual mode with auto upshift
    maps 46 and 47 are for manual with no auto upshift

    for more info read this

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...se-for-updates

    I've requested a stock RS6/7 file from Steve. They have the same trans as us, so I think it will be a great base to start tweaking. Especially from a timing and pressure point.
    Good catch on 47 i remembered after reading this that when i first started logging with HPT that it would show 47 in manual mode ( i had disabled auto upshift with vcds).

    But do have questions on what you said on aggression maps as i have been under the impression that aggression 1 = drive, 2 = manual mode, 3 = sport mode, and 4 = amax. There are some differences between the sw in the dodge and ours and i believe Steven has made changes to editor also. Funny i was going to say i need to put in another ticket i do not have TCM 30001 that shows shift pattern mapping for esp on/off but looking closer at the link it looks like it uses the same shift pattern whether esp/esc is on or off.

    Rs7 file attached.

    Edit: ugh sorry that is the engine file dont know what happened to the tcu file
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by bb-tt; 06-26-2020 at 02:26 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    you are part way there you need to change the tables and aggression 3 and then also changed the tables 25 and 27 that's manual mode and sport mode and also change them from 80% up because your vehicle will never see 90 to 100% throttle in most cases so you have to change it a little lower on the table
    Do you have the .hpt file for this tune? I would love to compare mine (that doesn't upshift at 7200) to yours that does upshift properly, that way I can see where I'm going wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by Woodepic View Post
    Any ideas what this table actually does / what I should chage it to? Below is the stock configuration for this table:
    Capture 4.PNG
    Also, does anybody know how to interpret this table / what we are adjusting in it?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodepic View Post
    Do you have the .hpt file for this tune? I would love to compare mine (that doesn't upshift at 7200) to yours that does upshift properly, that way I can see where I'm going wrong.




    Also, does anybody know how to interpret this table / what we are adjusting in it?
    My understanding is that table is the limit for the tcu to consider "overspinning" and throwing a fault. Oli cant think of the exact terminology at the moment dor some reason. Lol

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=Woodepic;616460]Do you have the .hpt file for this tune? I would love to compare mine (that doesn't upshift at 7200) to yours that does upshift properly, that way I can see where I'm going wrong.

    Ill use your file and build the shift tables how i run them so you can compare. I'm always changing shift points testing to see what rpm nets the fastest passes. So far 7100ish seems to be the fastest for my car. But i run the 2-3 shift a bit higher to help 0-60 like stated before. The attached pics are from a pull i did this morning in my 2012 a7.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    My understanding is that table is the limit for the tcu to consider "overspinning" and throwing a fault. Oli cant think of the exact terminology at the moment dor some reason. Lol
    Did you need to edit the values in this table to get a higher redline? If so what do you change them to?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemithis01 View Post
    My understanding is that table is the limit for the tcu to consider "overspinning" and throwing a fault. Oli cant think of the exact terminology at the moment dor some reason. Lol
    [QUOTE=Hemithis01;616472]
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodepic View Post
    Do you have the .hpt file for this tune? I would love to compare mine (that doesn't upshift at 7200) to yours that does upshift properly, that way I can see where I'm going wrong.

    Ill use your file and build the shift tables how i run them so you can compare. I'm always changing shift points testing to see what rpm nets the fastest passes. So far 7100ish seems to be the fastest for my car. But i run the 2-3 shift a bit higher to help 0-60 like stated before. The attached pics are from a pull i did this morning in my 2012 a7.
    Okay thanks so much!

    Edit: Holy cow those are wicked fast times. What tune is your engine on and / or how much power are you making? That is truly crazy
    Last edited by Woodepic; 06-26-2020 at 07:43 PM.