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Thread: Ford Falcon BA XR6T Turbo 4.0

  1. #1
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    Ford Falcon BA XR6T Turbo 4.0

    Hello, first time poster.

    I have an issue with a car, unknown history which is a good start.

    Modified with a larger turbo charger, blow off valve, wastegate and larger intercooler.

    Car had a replacement ecu fitted, which was a crank and no start condition (PATS disabled). I did get it to run for a short time but it did not run on all 6 cylinders, heavy smoke out the pipe (over fuelling) and when I compared a stock XR6 turbo ecu/map to the replacement ecu which was sold to the owner as a "pre tuned big HP ecu" I noticed some wildy different settings incl injector pulse width, injector flow numbers etc etc, and lots and lots of differences.

    So, I migrated/copied all the settings from the original or stock ecu over to the new ecu (stock ecu had its own problems, in where you had to heat the ecu with a heat gun before the vehicle would start.. bizarre, I know.. something inside must need to be heated or increase resistance? havent looked into that yet.) and once the new ecu was the same as the old one, I wrote the file to the car and she fired right up! sounded great, idled nice and was responsive and crisp to any throttle input in neutral.

    As I was letting the engine reach operating temp, the idle began to deteriorate, however was still responsive if you blipped the throttle, just struggled to idle (this was after 10-15 mins and coolant temp had reached 70 deg celc.

    After not long it stalled by itself. I managed to restart it but it started with difficulty, not like the first start which was instant and no hesitation. Again it ran for a few minutes before struggling to idle then stalled. After that it would not restart unless you put had throttle at 100%/WOT.. and then it was difficult to start.. it ran again for a while, still very responsive to throttle input, you could blip it and rev it up and it was nice and crisp, no smoke etc.. but again, lost its ability to idle and stalled again. and then it was a crank no start condition no matter what. You can hold WOT and it will cough and try to start but will not actually start and run by itself.

    I left it at that and now need to research and think about what is happening. Owner will try and start it again today now that it is cold again incase it is a heat related issue?

    I have a log file and I have my map/ecu file if anyone wants to look or thinks they can assist?

    I can try answer more specific questions to try and problem solve.

    Thank you,

    Kai

    p.s. my HP Tuners did not or does not seem to be able to read or log TPS or Fuel pressure? and few other paramenters/data which is annoying in this case.. is this something I need to set up or does the BA ford ecu/hp tuners not support this for this model...

  2. #2
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    screenshot1.png

    Also quickly, for the Idle RPM Adder vs Startup IAT temp, I cannot change the scale to match the stock ecu scale..

    -46 deg celc is the lowest I can go, but the stock ecu starts at -160 deg celc... which makes the graph/table very different (line graph representation.)

    If anyone has any ideas on that..

    I am trawling the forums slowly today inbetween work.

  3. #3
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    Update, started with no hesitation or issue today after cooling down overnight and today.

    Again, ran fine for a good 10-15 minutes and then stalled by itself. Owner tried to restart after 5 mins. Crank No Start. Will try again in 30 minutes and then 90 minutes.

    After that will disconnect battery for 30 mins then retry.

    If all that fails, will begin under the assumption it is a heat related break down. I think my heat related compensation tables are all normal - they match what I read/pulled off a stock ecu.

    Happy to share on here if anyone is interested in helping..

  4. #4
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    post file and log

  5. #5
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    crankStartPoorIdleStall.hpl
    crankNoStart2.hpl
    crankNoStart.hpl
    Ford Falcon BA Turbo ECM Post First Start Up.hpt
    Ford Falcon BA Turbo ECM file.hpt

    the start/poor idle log is probably the most useful I had managed. and the 2 ecu files are much the same, a few changes to the post first start file which is currently loaded into the car.

    Starts fine from cold, have let it cool down twice now and restarts fine. but once it has some temp in it, cannot idle by itself and if it stalls cannot restart. Sometimes holding WOT will get it to restart.. but gets less effective the warmer the engine and/or engine bay and componenets are etc. and eventually even holding WOT will not get it to start, it will just cough a few times, fire a couple of times then die because it cannot idle or go into its idle circuit
    Last edited by Fast Eddie; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:17 PM.

  6. #6
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    I have had a look at the files you have posted. There are so many things wrong Im not sure where to start! Whoever has been playing around with this ecu clearly had no idea what they were doing!

    Check DTC's to see if there are any mechanical/electrical faults 1st. HPtuners/vcm scanner is shit at finding DTC's. I use an ELM327 OBD + forscan to get dtc's.

    The main things that stood out for me are the low slope is way too lean compared to the high slope.
    Someone has cut the borderline spark table & pasted it into the MBT table so its calling for 50 deg ignition timing at lower loads. thats why the ig timing is bouncing around before it stalls but when you first start it the timing is closer to 10 deg or so and it runs ok.

    I have heard of the BA ecu fault where you need to pour hot water over it if they won't start.

    I see on the log it says open loop fault. Change the closed loop temp enable setting back to standard so it idles in closed loop.
    I can see just before it stalls the STFT goes to 25%. Fixing the injector scaling may fix it.
    The manifold vacuum seems to bounce around a lot too from 50-100kpa. This makes me think you could have a vacuum leak - maybe leaking intake manifold gasket. Just check the map sensor under the throttle body is the original and someone hasn't changed it to a 3 bar map sensor or something.
    The fuel cranking table is screwed up. its backwards to what it should be. You want it richer when its cold, leaner when its warmed up. Just put that back to stock.

    My advice would be to get a stock ecm file from the repository or use the backup file of the ecu you purchased and cut & paste everything into the ecm you have to get it back to 100% stock.
    Then I would find the part number off the injectors you have and get accurate injector calibration data and change those values in your ecm file to suit.
    Then see what happens.

  7. #7
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    Thanks Luke,

    gives me plenty to start with! I appreciate it.

    That is actually a cut and paste of what I thought was a stock XR6T ecu.. and I did find a lot of the values strange but since they were the values in the original, what I believed, untouched XR6T ecu I left everything in the hope that if its all stock and un touched it should run and then go from there. (it is the file that was on the cars original ecu which needed hot water or a heat gun on it to run) I will go through it again now and double check. I simply did compare packages, then copy and pasted everything from one to the other.. The only drama I had was as posted earlier.. I cannot change one of the scales. The stock file (or what I believed to be) started at -160deg while I could only get to -46.. everything else appeared to match up. But as you state clearly there are many issues you have pointed out I have to address.

    Have identified the vacuum leak already, thank you. had perished hose.. will find out if that is remedied when it is started/run next.

    Will update tomorrow.

    I will post the cars original ecu file up here too, the one I copied. Which was thought to be the original ford xr6t ecu and file.. untouched.

  8. #8
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    Luke, this is the file that was in the car originally. Owner tells me that the car used to run fine and the only issue was that the whole having to pour hot water on it to get it to start happened.. After growing tired of that they bought the replacement ecu which is now in the car. With that ecu the car would not start or if it did, it would run on only a few cylinders with smoke pouring out the exhaust and that lovely smell of fuel with it.

    I have simply plugged the original ecu in, read the file/saved it, then did compare packaged and copied everything from one to the other. I am going through it now to try identify all the issues you outlined and to see what else I may have gotten wrong.

    Let me know if you think this file attached is a genuine/factory file or if it is also horribly wrong and I am simply trying to fix a f*cked file with another f*cked file?

    I will be the first to admit I don't quite know what I am doing, I do some fuel maps but that is all. Read the lambdas, do the map. Includes some transient fuelling, some post shift, some compensations and enrichments etc etc but basically its all fuel tuning via lambdas. We are locked out of ign timing and anything else. And its a race motor so has none of the roady stuff.

    I really appreciate your time and help.

    1MB6OJ 2004 Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo.hpt

  9. #9
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    Hi again Luke, before I go to bed, I've just compared the current file in car (the one I wrote to the new ecu.) to the file in the cars original stock ecu and all looks the same as far as I can tell... so kind of begs the question, how did it run on the original ecu with no dramas? assuming the vehicle owner is not ommitting any details.. any irrelevant now as it has issues that need to be diagnosed and remedied. And with an unknown history I can't really assume or take anything for granted.

    I have an f6 and BAII turbo file from the repository now and am comparing all those to each other.. there are variations between all 3 of course.. but I will try make a new file again taking into consideration your comments..

    Also must point out, the thing runs really good, it just cannot idle by itself. But if you apply say 1% throttle or just a tiny bit it will run fine.. it is simply when you release accelerator it cannot maintain an idle by itself. but if you hold it at say 1000rpm yourself it will happily sit there. It will increase engine speed willingly with no hesitations or misfires or anything like that. It sounds and feels really clean and crisp.. just cannot idle and once it stalls it will not restart.

    Further more, the original heat theory seems out the window. At first I thought it starts when cold and dies as it warms up a bit. Vehicle would not start yesterday despite being left overnight and cold, but it did start again today however needed a little throttle application to start after being left overnight and still cold obv. And ran for about 20 minutes by itself then stalled...so it reached a greater temp and ran longer today than previously before stalling. But too many variables for this to be useful. ambient temp etc.

    Anyway, still get the ECU file right first.. then continue the diagnosis.

  10. #10
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    This file is the file on the vehicles original ecu. I have not touched it, simply plugged ecu back into the car, read the file and saved it.
    I assumed it to be an original Ford ECU File, untouched.

    1MB6OJ 2004 Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo.hpt



    This is the file in the car now, written to the replacment ECU. It is a file I made by copying the cars original ecu file (above).. I have compared it a few times and can only identify one difference now which is outlined in an earlier post. about the scale, original ecu scale starts at -160 but I cannot get my file to go below -46 I think it is.. see above post for screen shot.
    And also the fan settings which I skipped for now. But will update it and copy those settings too.

    Ford Falcon BA Turbo ECM Post First Start Up.hpt

  11. #11
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    that is not a stock file.

    injector settings alone give that away

  12. #12
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    Is this your car or is it a customers?
    Where do you live? If you live in Brisbane it might make things easier.
    Does this thing have bigger cams than stock? Most stock barras idle at around 30-40kpa manifold pressure. Yours seems all over the place.
    What fuel? E85 or unleaded 98?

    Don't stress about the -160 scale that you are trying to change. Its irrelevant. It is when the coolant temp is below -46!

    I have attached an original HAANFHZ file that I saved from my last BA ECU XR6T ecu. It is stock.

    Another tip when you are cutting/pasting between files make sure that VCM Editor is setup for imperial units. Often when you cut/paste the table will still stay green which shows that it isnt an exact copy. Sometimes switching from metric to imperial will work better and then the box will turn red so you know its an exact match. Also if you still can't get a match try adding more decimal places to the cells/table that will help too. Often the numbers are rounded down and you need to extend it out several decimal places.

    My next advice to help you diagnose it would be to log a few more PIDS in the left hand column. The more info you can get the better.
    BA black oak ecus don't have as many channels to log as the BF or FG (or HPTuners hasn't added them is more the case).
    I upgraded the ecu in my XH ute from BA a while ago to BF and re-wired it to suit.

    Look at the screenshot of what I log. (This is from a 1/4 mile pass at Willowbank earlier this month. 11.01 @127mph)
    It varies from day to day depending on what I'm trying to improve or fix.

    I would try to add: (Not sure if BA has all of these)

    Number of DTC's. (Lets see if it is throwing a fault code just before it stalls)
    Throttle Angle (I want to see what the ecu is trying to do to control idle speed)
    EQ Ratio commanded (This will show if the ecu is trying to make it richer or leaner so I can determine if its a fueling issue or something else)
    Fuel Source (Open loop or closed loop)
    Spark Source (What spark table the ecu is using)
    Throttle Angle Source (Need to check its in idle control mode not torque control mode)
    Cam Angle
    Cam Angle error (just to check cam timing is set right)

    vcmscanner.jpg

    Also please change the base fuel table back to stock. 0.90 lambda is too lean for boost but spot on for naturally aspirated.

    Hopefully the stock file will be some help.
    Keep us posted.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #13
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    Thank you Luke, I really appreciate your time and sharing your knowledge.
    First it is not my car, I am being compensated for my time but its a friend of a friend of a friend.
    Vehicle is sitting in a boggy grass backyard out in Country Victoria.. so I have to drive an hour or so each time to mess with it.
    Owner sadly has inherited the car from her late husband, it has obvious sentimental value now so she is desperate to get it running. Has had a few people take money to "fix it" but have just wasted $$ throwing parts at it, coils, battery, fuel pump etc etc. With no results.
    Since I had HP tuners I got the call if I could try help. So here I am!

    Complete unknown history.. And fair enough owner does not know a lot about it. It certainly has a larger turbo fitted. No idea about internal specs and the only person that probably knows is no longer with us. I will pull an injector or get the part number.

    The story I got was, car used to run problem free with the old ecu with that file I posted but that ecu needed the hot water trick to start it. TheIr this is a true story or not I don't know. The 2nd ecu was purchased to stop the hot water business but it never ran once new ecu was fitted. Then she had various people come to fix it.. just threw parts at it.. got no where except spent cash. That's all the history I can get. The rest Ill have to figure out.

    It runs on pump gas 98

    Thanks again for the files and direction. I will follow what you posted above tonight and am going back out to the car tomorrow night.

    Will update more later after I look through files and make the changes. Will post my new file up here before I write it to the ecu.

    Thanks again!

  14. #14
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    Hey Luke mate,

    I finally got back out to the car, was at the race track all weekend then flat out with service work, racing 3 weekends in a row! Phew.. nearly holiday time.

    anyway, so I took your xr6 file you posted, and I copied everything over to the cars file and wrote that to ecu.. I was careful that the scales and units were the same between the files to the best of my current ability.
    It did start after some trouble but ran like a dog, definitely not on 6 cylinders - maybe 3 or 4cyl. like really bad, with smoke out the exhaust pipe. Smelt like unburnt fuel. Very unresponsive to throttle input, a massive struggle to gain any engine speed/increase in rpm.



    I didn't have the scanner going to log it, so I shut it off and had only run for maybe 60 seconds at this point.) Opened scanner and started recording then tried to start. No good, crank but no start.

    I then added more channels to the scanner and continued to crank and see if it starts. I almost added all channels and tried a few times logging everything but thought trying to log this much data at once may be too much? So I deleted all channels and just set up the channels you recommended plus a few I wanted to see. It may still be too many channels to try log at once but the car is going to be towed to me so I can chip away at it whenever I have free time, and I can get it on the hoist and work under a roof and with lighting which is nice.

    I will sort out the files now and try upload them in some logical way and so you dont have to trawl through too much.

  15. #15
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    Ok post up the files I can have a look at them.
    Did you find the injector part numbers and then find accurate injector data for them?
    It will obviously run like crap with the wrong injector data.
    Also did you check with DTC's with another scan tool or ELM327?

  16. #16
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    Hi Luke, will post later tonight, away racing atm.. wrote one chassis off already. See what today brings.

    will upload a quick log file now trying to start with your file.

    I did get injector number, yet to find the injector data for them. We put the old map back in though and runs good.. just will eventually stall and then struggle to restart. Towing car out of the backyard and to workshop soon hopefully so I can be a bit more methodical and systematic. I see alot of strange things in the logs like readings from the map sensor. I havent had any time the last few days.

  17. #17
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    Attachment 94622

    Thats the log for crank no start with your stock xr6t file. It did start and run once with it but ran terribly as you say, wrong inj settings won't help that cause. I'll take the injector number and try find the settings for it.

    Shut it down to start logging but it never restarted again.

    Put my old file back into it and it at least tried to start but would just be in that state of nearly firing but not being able to get into idle. so you can hear it fire, fire, fire but never actually gets running.

    Anyway - plenty still to work on. I'll get those injector settings correct for starters.

    Need to log it when its actually running again too, but logging it when it ran on your file was prob pointless as it ran like absolute shit and wouldnt idle etc, had to work throttle and smoke pouring out the back. At least with the other file it idles and ran smooth.. until it stalled and crank no start condition again.

    Then confirm a few sensors are working correctly. I have seen the MAP sensor do some strange things in my logs.

    Further more, ran plates - it comes up as an XR8... I have the VIN/chassis number here but no google results on what it is. I need to call Ford and see if they can tell me what it should be. I'm picking it was an XR8..

    Plot thickens. owner tells me there used to be a switch fitted to it. you had to flick switch, hold down accelerator pedal for a while then crank and start it. They removed the switch and at that point the hot water trick came into play.. but apparently still ran good once it started with the hot water on ecu.

    Then the replacement ecu was purchased and fitted and its never run again apart from when I have managed to get it going for short times recently.

    The file I made from your stock xr6t file Luke.. in case you spot errors I have made that would prevent it from running.

  18. #18
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    BAXR6turboEcuFile.hpt

    heres file used to match above log file.

    sorry, at Tailem Bend, no 4g

  19. #19
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    lastTryCrankNoStartLukesXR6File.hpl

    heres log.. shite reception/internet out here

  20. #20
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    injector number (from side of injector body)

    0 280 156 123

    -566 (3 numbers embossed on there as well in diff location)

    I will have to try find the calib settings for these somewhere.

    I'm a bit spoilt at work, we buy direct from our parts manufacturers so I can just call and ask for any info. I'll see if a ford dealer can point me in the right direction.