Wideband Options Moving Into 2020?

[Holy City]

These last few years have been rough, but I?m finally at a point in my recovery where I can work a little at a time in the garage. After the holidays I?m planning on getting a new wideband setup and am looking for recommendations. Specifically, with it pushing me into very late 2019/early 2020, what should I look for in the current or soon to be offered options (i.e. brands/models to look at or avoid, must-have capabilities, nice-to-have capabilities worth considering, gimmicks to stay clear of, etc)

I have the MPVI2 w/Pro Features and will be using the wideband on a 2014 Chrysler 200 Limited 3.6L Pentastar V6. I?m planning on welding in a bung and permanently installing the setup unless there?s a reason this should be avoided...?

[charcoal03silvy]

Ballenger Motorsports is working on an upgraded version of their AFR500v2. Personally I use an ECM AFX2 with an NTK sensor, which is basically the same thing as the current AFR500v2. Lots of people use and love AEM, but have tuning many many vehicles that had an AEM in it already, the majority of them never matched my calibrated NTK sensors, so I really don't trust them much.

[dr.mike]

I would not expect a Bosch based wideband to match an NTK based unit, unless the NTK unit had an exhaust back-pressure compensation sensor. The NTK sensors are more than 4X more sensitive to back-pressure error than the Bosch versions. I've seen this in direct A/B testing on the same rig.

[dStruct]

So I've been doing a lot of digging around and researching the various wideband systems currently available and seem to keep coming up short on what I'm looking for.

In a nutshell I'm trying to find an HPtuners compatible NTK based wideband setup that does serial/canbus output, and doesn't cost $1000+. I've looked at AFR500v2 and the AEM X-series 30-0334 as two examples. For example the Ballenger does NTK but no canbus, and AEM does canbus but is a bosch LSU 4.9.

Does anyone know if a system exists like this, that isn't a lab/calibration grade $1000+ setup? This would be permanently installed in my daily driver, and my goal is to use it mainly for datalogging, and not so much to monitor using a gauge, in fact I might even go with something that doesn't have a gauge and use some custom canbus integration to just be alerted if/when the car goes too lean/rich via something like the DIC LCD display or similar.

Any input or feedback is greatly appreciated, thanks.

[dr.mike]

The only advantage that the NTK sensor has is that is it a bit harder to kill, with thermal shock, than the Bosch sensor. But, 90%+, of the thermal damage that Bosch sensors take, is from user error. When operated according to the instructions in the Bosch datasheet, for the LSU4.9 sensor, failures from thermal shock are very rare. This is why they can be used for 100,000 miles, in OEM applications ( The ECU follows the rules ).

Some good information can be found, here: http://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-...-applications/

For the life of me, I do not know why this information is not plastered across the front page of every wideband manufacturer's website. It would cut WAY WAY down on complaints and returns. ( Are you guys listening ??? )

The NTK sensor is about 2x less sensitive to thermal shock, compared to the Bosch sensors. This is because they are more heavily built. i.e. the bigger/heavier element has a larger thermal mass.

But, this comes at a cost...


Without an exhaust back-pressure sensor, for compensation, THE NTK SENSOR IS SIGNIFICANTLY LESS ACCURATE than the Bosch sensors. And, I have, personally verified this on the test bench, with calibrated test gasses. The NTK sensors are more than 4 times as sensitive to changes in exhaust back-pressure, than are the Bosch sensors. So much so, that the NTK sensors are factory calibrated at a pressure of about +1.5psi, just so that they are more accurate in actual use.

The NTK sensor is also MUCH slower to respond, than the Bosch sensor. To the point where, it can not, really, be used to tune transition events; and, is only really, usable for steady state measurements. The fastest response form a Bosch sensor is about 10ms. The fastest response recorded for an NTK sensor is about 85ms. And that was with a modified AEM 30-0310. Existing, available, NTK widebands range from about 100ms-250ms.

Further, free-air the calibration method, used for NTK sensors is not really very accurate. If you remember the +1.5psi, that I mentioned, when you do a free-air calibration, that is done at +0psi. So, you do not get the correct value. As far as I can recall, only the ECM LambdaCANp and the, older, AFM1000p have the pressure sensor, as an option for the NTK sensor. ( Now that I think of is, HORIBA probably has a pressure compensated unit , too ) So, the calibrated, lab grade sensors are meaningless, without the pressure sensor and compensation mechanism. If you look at ECM's wideband calibrator/simulator, it, specifically, calls out multiple pressure values, for just this purpose.



All that said, the NTK sensors do have their applications, where they are preferred.

1. Start-up testing.If you need to test AFR, immediately, on start-up. Use the NTK sensor. It has a better chance of surviving the thermal shock of the rush of cold exhaust gas on a preheated (+1200F ) sensor. Since most events are relatively slow, at start-up, the response time penalty is not that bad. And the back-pressures are at minimum values at start-up/idle.

2. Pre-turbo installations. As long as you have the pressure compensation going, the NTK's heartier construction will give a longer useful life under the extreme temperature swings that happen in pre-turbo installations.

3. Stationary engines. These are water pumps, electrical generators, etc. Where, the engine runs at a constant RPM and load, over long periods. Small piston engines, in aircraft, are also, stationary engines, ironically. Response time is almost meaningless in these applications.

4. Very high lead content fuel use. The platinum elements in the NTK sensors are larger. That seems to help them live a bit longer in a lead-rich environment. They do, however, need constant calibration, under those conditions.

Other than those, the Bosch sensors are preferred for all other installations.

[dStruct]

Thanks for the info Dr. Mike. That is all very helpful to me.

It's such a hard call to make on exactly which route to go, I'm really leaning towards just sticking the AEM 30-0334 in the car (a slightly modded C6 ZR-1) and just call it a day. I was aware of the LSU 4.9 sample rate, however I was not aware the NTK was that slow, and I'd be curious to know if that was the 4ma L1H1 older style or the newer 6ma L2H2. Either way given the sensor sample rate of 10ms or greater that makes a canbus option such as the AEM or similar achievable, since you don't want to necessarily be hammering a canbus with extra data every 1ms or so, 10ms I think wouldn't be too much additional traffic for most cases with a OEM computer.

I'm just looking for something accurate enough to keep me from getting into trouble going lean if something maybe fails, or possibly some remote tuning. Being able to have the wideband in hptuners makes that whole process that much easier for the tuner, and myself for that matter.

I'm planning on hiding the gauge (if I even get one) where the ashtray goes and a lot of people put their nitrous enable/purge stuff. I plan to integrate the wideband with the canbus and some kind of alert like the stock chime sound to ding if I get outside a normal range rich/lean for example. When I'm WOT there's no chance I can glance down at a gauge even for a moment.

[dr.mike]

The 85ms response time, for the NTK sensors, was with the newer 4ma LHA sensor. The old 6ma L1H1 and L2H2 are even slower.

Thus far, I have not seen a CAN bus saturation issue, even with a pair of 30-0334s running 2 banks. But, if this were to become an issue, in the future, using the 30-0300's AEMNet CAN interface with the ProLink would solve that problem. In any case, the OBD2 interface, used with HPTuners, is a request/reply protocol. So, you can run the polling rate slower, if you want, to conserve bandwidth.

If you don't want a gauge, I would use the 30-0310 inline. It can be used with the Pro-Link CANBus or, re-flashed for OBD2.

[toalan]

The response time of the LSU 4.9 is south of 100us. I have not yet had the opportunity to run my test setup on the NTK sensor but I expect it to be faster.