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Thread: Harsh shift on 3-5 after solenoid upograde

  1. #1
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    Harsh shift on 3-5 after solenoid upograde

    OK. 08 f350 with 12 valve cummins,
    Just upgraded to stage 2 EPC and direct Solenoids to reduce shift flare. 1-2, 2-3 shifts are nice crisp and firm. 3-5 shift harsh almost shudders under light throttle, 1/2 throttle or more its ok. I havent been able to figure out how to tune it out. What clutches control which shifts? have not been able to find much info on tuning a 5r110, any help would be greart...TIAScreenshot (23).pngScreenshot (22).png

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver64 View Post
    OK. 08 f350 with 12 valve cummins,
    Just upgraded to stage 2 EPC and direct Solenoids to reduce shift flare. 1-2, 2-3 shifts are nice crisp and firm. 3-5 shift harsh almost shudders under light throttle, 1/2 throttle or more its ok. I havent been able to figure out how to tune it out. What clutches control which shifts? have not been able to find much info on tuning a 5r110, any help would be greart...TIAScreenshot (23).pngScreenshot (22).png
    Post your stock trans file so i can compare what you've done, but two things i see right off the bat spending 2 minutes looking is, one, you've turned off all torque reduction, this is not right IMO. You should leave it on and tune it to work properly, it can help your shift happen faster actually. Two, under adaptive's your torque transfer time is probably your biggest issue on the harsh 3-5 shift. That's a low throttle input area for the shift and you have the transfer time super low. You'll also need a data log to know where it's happening, Log TPS, turbine speed, and OSS to know when and where it's happening. Remember Adaptive's are what the trans is targeting for the shift, So, if your fill times, slip times and pressure's are off it will adjust them to try and achieve your commanded adaptive Initial slip, overall slip, and the torque transfer times you've set. I bet if you reset TCM 41339 back to stock or the entire table to 325ms you'd solve your issue.
    Last edited by JaegerWrenching; 12-15-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  3. #3
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    My understanding is that the torque management is so that the tcm can talk to the engine to tell it to reduce torque during shifts. Being that i have a non computer controlled engine in front there is no way for it to reduce torque during the shift. Running the stock file it flares between 2-3, 3-5 shift really bad even at very low throttle. Common problem on cummins swap. Im new to HP tuners and vcm scanner, have not figured out how to get trans pids to do a log. I will add my original file Stock which was fine with the ford motor before the swap and will also add the file ive been using that works good but flares on heavy throttle.
    If i do a log without setting up correctly will it still be able to be read/looked at by yourself or anyone else that does know how to set up and read?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  4. #4
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    Did some testing ..changing thing.
    Tried changing off going clutches to stock values, no difference.
    Started on coming clutch....first change was the 3A-5A put values to stock....! it got rid of the harshness IE like someone popping clutch in a manual trans to a dip.
    Hard to explain, like a missed shift but not revving, truck would nose dip then the shft would happen and be normal.
    Kept raising pressures till it got harsh again then backed off 1 on whole table. The harshness is gone but the shift is still not like the other shifts. Also turned on all the Torque based stuff that was turned off. Gonna leave it for a day or so and hope that the adaptive smooths things out.

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver64 View Post
    My understanding is that the torque management is so that the tcm can talk to the engine to tell it to reduce torque during shifts. Being that i have a non computer controlled engine in front there is no way for it to reduce torque during the shift. Running the stock file it flares between 2-3, 3-5 shift really bad even at very low throttle. Common problem on cummins swap. Im new to HP tuners and vcm scanner, have not figured out how to get trans pids to do a log. I will add my original file Stock which was fine with the ford motor before the swap and will also add the file ive been using that works good but flares on heavy throttle.
    If i do a log without setting up correctly will it still be able to be read/looked at by yourself or anyone else that does know how to set up and read?
    Yes sorry i overlooked the cummins swap, i just saw 08 f350. If you have a cummins swap you are correct and have to turn TQ truncation off. You are now required to tune this trans for a "one size fits all" and it'll never do everything perfect. IF you leave Trans torque reduction on you'll be chasing your tail. This is why It's a tq based TCM originally and you took away the one thing it uses to modify shift clarity. I'm not trying to be rude but do you understand what the off going and oncoming clutches are and what they do? Or do you know how a planetary gear set works? The offgoing clutch is the clutch currently holding all the tq and about to be released, the oncoming is the one doing exactly that, it's on coming and about to start to apply it'self to hold all the torque. If they are not timed right you will accelerate clutch wear and input a lot of heat into them. Here is a link to some dodge trans tuning that's very similar to help you understand what is going on. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-for-Steven-HP This Also this has lots of good info on ford specific things. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ng-Definitions

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    So through a lot of changing, driving and change again I've got it to a point that's it acceptable. The 3a-5a on coming and 3a 5a off going seem to make most change to the 3-5 shift. I just made a trip from lousianna to Florida towing my 42' 5th wheel trailer (approx 15k loaded ) and it ran smooth. I would still like to firm up the 5-6 shift a little but over all it's pretty good now. Shifts similar to my 7.3 4r100 trans with BTS valve body and tunes.
    Most of my changes were based off the first post link you sent. I had that one printed and in the truck couple months ago. Just couldn't get the flaring completely gone until I did the upgraded solenoids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver64 View Post
    So through a lot of changing, driving and change again I've got it to a point that's it acceptable. The 3a-5a on coming and 3a 5a off going seem to make most change to the 3-5 shift. I just made a trip from lousianna to Florida towing my 42' 5th wheel trailer (approx 15k loaded ) and it ran smooth. I would still like to firm up the 5-6 shift a little but over all it's pretty good now. Shifts similar to my 7.3 4r100 trans with BTS valve body and tunes.
    Most of my changes were based off the first post link you sent. I had that one printed and in the truck couple months ago. Just couldn't get the flaring completely gone until I did the upgraded solenoids.
    I just finished the same exact build as you (2008 F3504x4 auto with 12v cummins swap) would you mind helping me out an sharing the files you currently have that are working well for you. I am having the same issues with flaring between shifts when I get over 35% throttle. Just bought HP tuners this week so I have a mountain to climb.

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    Silver64, would you be kind enough to share your tune with us please. I too am new to HPtuner and have swapped a Detroit/5R110 and am having similar issues. Mine shifts great under 50% throttle but flares under full throttle. I've downloaded your torque convertor file to compare with mine as trying to get 3rd locked up. I have a lot to learn on this trans and programming. Thanks in advance.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    The reason you are having flaring issues is the TCM doesn't have a torque input. These TCM's use torque to build the appropriate line pressure and now it's set at one point, the lowest. This is why it shifts ok where it makes little torque and flares up top. Start by setting the base pressure higher.

  10. #10
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    Thanks, I'm slowly learning the program and now have the Torque converter locking in 3rd, so it's a start in the right direction. I'll run this tune for a few days and then look at the line pressures.

  11. #11
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    So the trans tcm call to the ECM for torque tables to use for commanded line pressure for gear changes. In engine portion it has estimated torque tables.......now what if we uped the estimated torque values the the tcm is reading from to possibly increase li e pressure during shifts.... We know the Cummins makes more low end torque than the 6.4 we just don't know how much per given rpm. So if increase by 10% at a time to test and see if it firms shifts and reduce flaring.