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Thread: 10r80 Torque Modulation Tables

  1. #61
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    This could be addressed by copying the row axis values into the rest of the table the same, but I really don't think it would change anything.
    Oh I did that and tq+ was still there...

  2. #62
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    I don't think it's a command for more torque from the engine.
    It's an indication there's positive torque coming from the trans that no engine control is going to reduce. When it is determined to be the dominant control of engine speed, it shows as the source.

    In hybrid vehicles this positive torque could be coming from the electric motor. In non hybrid vehicles it's coming from the vehicles speed/ transmission speed not matching the engines. A rev match down shift is requesting more torque from the engine, with out that, Tq + from the trans would force the engines speed to match the transmissions. It wouldn't be as smooth because of the differences in torques.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  3. #63
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    That all makes sense, but if that’s the case it doesn’t explain why the throttle opens with a torque source of “TQ+ from trans” on little/no pedal downshifts.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I don't think it's a command for more torque from the engine.
    It's an indication there's positive torque coming from the trans that no engine control is going to reduce. When it is determined to be the dominant control of engine speed, it shows as the source.

    In hybrid vehicles this positive torque could be coming from the electric motor. In non hybrid vehicles it's coming from the vehicles speed/ transmission speed not matching the engines. A rev match down shift is requesting more torque from the engine, with out that, Tq + from the trans would force the engines speed to match the transmissions. It wouldn't be as smooth because of the differences in torques.
    On all ZF8 vehicles that I worked on - yes 10r80 is a copy of zf8 - thers is no such a thing, shifts are crisp with just one modulation even with Dodge Demon.
    More to say Dodge and others can make this trans shift good and even cut the fuel for few ms to have crisp shift with a beautiful "burp" sound....but ford, hey ho lets make this impossible to tune and super complicated for tuners...

    Ford should hire Audi engineers to tune this trans...there is absolutely ANOTHER level how those trans work in Audi cars...
    Last edited by veeefour; 2 Days Ago at 02:12 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    On all ZF8 vehicles that I worked on - yes 10r80 is a copy of zf8 - thers is no such a thing, shifts are crisp with just one modulation even with Dodge Demon.
    More to say Dodge and others can make this trans shift good and even cut the fuel for few ms to have crisp shift with a beautiful "burp" sound....but ford, hey ho lets make this impossible to tune and super complicated for tuners...

    Ford should hire Audi engineers to tune this trans...there is absolutely ANOTHER level how those trans work in Audi cars...
    I wouldn't say its a copy of the ZF, but actually they are controlled very similar. I would go as far to say exactly the same. Synchronous shifts are synchronous shifts. 6R80 included.
    They have a lot more going on with determining shift scheduling, which arguably makes tuning them harder vs just our 3 characteristics and 15 or so maps of different modes. A problem caused by so many manufactures using the same transmission.
    Ford breaks shifts down into just 3 phases vs ZF does 4 if you actually count the maintenance phase. The 3rd post of the sticky for "getting to know the ZF" in the dodge transmission section is a very good explanation and a lot applies to Ford as well.
    A lot of it is just stuffed under shift properties tab. The units of torque or torque/time don't really fit shift pressure or shift timing so HPT had to make the shift properties tab to put it all under.

    This applied with 6r80 and still applies for 10r80.

    conventional upshift control.jpg

    T eng- torque of engine
    T ogc - torque of off going clutch
    T occ - torque of oncoming clutch

    The Ford calibration follows these straight lines to easier describe the curvy lines that pressures actually are.

    P ogc - pressure of off going clutch
    P occ- pressure of oncoming clutch

    Its really important to know the phases of a shift for transmission tuning. Its also usually why I refrain from discussing transmission tuning with others, its all inertia phase and nothing else with most people.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  6. #66
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    If you look inside ZF8 and 10r you will see they are almost identical - of course not 1:1 but just like 6r was to ZF6.
    Even gear ratios are identical up to 8th gear, trust me on this one...ford just squeezed 2 more gears out of planetary combinations.

    Will read trough the rest later, have 3 cars to tune and everything you post requires 100% concentration

    Take a look at audi tunes for zf8 - the way trans work in rs6 for example is on another level, like different galaxy...its
    the same trans, well almost the same not sure why some manufactures do that in a such complicated way...this is beyond
    my comprehension...
    Last edited by veeefour; 2 Days Ago at 07:05 AM.

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    The 10r80 can also cut fuel on upshifts and make the sound. Not as good sounding as audi or mercedes or even dodge but better than nothing. Also makes the shifts feel very smooth and very fast.

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    6r80 can do that too - its just not working well with ford "logic".

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    I also got the shift fuel cut working on upshifts but there’s an unfortunate side effect. It sends a burst of air down the exhaust that registers a lean signal from the o2 sensors, which results in an unintended increase in spark timing due to the lambda borderline correction.

  10. #70
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    It can also cause the lean knock.

    Very easy to do just command less spark cut with ratio tables like 0.5, it will fill up the hole with injector cut.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I also got the shift fuel cut working on upshifts but there’s an unfortunate side effect. It sends a burst of air down the exhaust that registers a lean signal from the o2 sensors, which results in an unintended increase in spark timing due to the lambda borderline correction.
    I don't seem to have that issue. Im not boosted yet though and I have a F-150. Most of the time it only ends up cutting a few cylinders. It seems to learn how long it needs to do it to make the shift. I also let it pull timing still too.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFrostLSC View Post
    I don't seem to have that issue. Im not boosted yet though and I have a F-150. Most of the time it only ends up cutting a few cylinders. It seems to learn how long it needs to do it to make the shift. I also let it pull timing still too.
    oh no n/a vs boosted is completely different story...you can't even imagine trust me.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I wouldn't say its a copy of the ZF, but actually they are controlled very similar. I would go as far to say exactly the same. Synchronous shifts are synchronous shifts. 6R80 included.
    They have a lot more going on with determining shift scheduling, which arguably makes tuning them harder vs just our 3 characteristics and 15 or so maps of different modes. A problem caused by so many manufactures using the same transmission.
    Ford breaks shifts down into just 3 phases vs ZF does 4 if you actually count the maintenance phase. The 3rd post of the sticky for "getting to know the ZF" in the dodge transmission section is a very good explanation and a lot applies to Ford as well.
    A lot of it is just stuffed under shift properties tab. The units of torque or torque/time don't really fit shift pressure or shift timing so HPT had to make the shift properties tab to put it all under.

    This applied with 6r80 and still applies for 10r80.

    conventional upshift control.jpg

    T eng- torque of engine
    T ogc - torque of off going clutch
    T occ - torque of oncoming clutch

    The Ford calibration follows these straight lines to easier describe the curvy lines that pressures actually are.

    P ogc - pressure of off going clutch
    P occ- pressure of oncoming clutch

    Its really important to know the phases of a shift for transmission tuning. Its also usually why I refrain from discussing transmission tuning with others, its all inertia phase and nothing else with most people.
    I could really go for that discussion. Imo.