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Thread: 10r80 Torque Modulation Tables

  1. #61
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    This could be addressed by copying the row axis values into the rest of the table the same, but I really don't think it would change anything.
    Oh I did that and tq+ was still there...

  2. #62
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    I don't think it's a command for more torque from the engine.
    It's an indication there's positive torque coming from the trans that no engine control is going to reduce. When it is determined to be the dominant control of engine speed, it shows as the source.

    In hybrid vehicles this positive torque could be coming from the electric motor. In non hybrid vehicles it's coming from the vehicles speed/ transmission speed not matching the engines. A rev match down shift is requesting more torque from the engine, with out that, Tq + from the trans would force the engines speed to match the transmissions. It wouldn't be as smooth because of the differences in torques.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  3. #63
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    That all makes sense, but if that’s the case it doesn’t explain why the throttle opens with a torque source of “TQ+ from trans” on little/no pedal downshifts.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I don't think it's a command for more torque from the engine.
    It's an indication there's positive torque coming from the trans that no engine control is going to reduce. When it is determined to be the dominant control of engine speed, it shows as the source.

    In hybrid vehicles this positive torque could be coming from the electric motor. In non hybrid vehicles it's coming from the vehicles speed/ transmission speed not matching the engines. A rev match down shift is requesting more torque from the engine, with out that, Tq + from the trans would force the engines speed to match the transmissions. It wouldn't be as smooth because of the differences in torques.
    On all ZF8 vehicles that I worked on - yes 10r80 is a copy of zf8 - thers is no such a thing, shifts are crisp with just one modulation even with Dodge Demon.
    More to say Dodge and others can make this trans shift good and even cut the fuel for few ms to have crisp shift with a beautiful "burp" sound....but ford, hey ho lets make this impossible to tune and super complicated for tuners...

    Ford should hire Audi engineers to tune this trans...there is absolutely ANOTHER level how those trans work in Audi cars...
    Last edited by veeefour; 11-24-2021 at 02:12 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    On all ZF8 vehicles that I worked on - yes 10r80 is a copy of zf8 - thers is no such a thing, shifts are crisp with just one modulation even with Dodge Demon.
    More to say Dodge and others can make this trans shift good and even cut the fuel for few ms to have crisp shift with a beautiful "burp" sound....but ford, hey ho lets make this impossible to tune and super complicated for tuners...

    Ford should hire Audi engineers to tune this trans...there is absolutely ANOTHER level how those trans work in Audi cars...
    I wouldn't say its a copy of the ZF, but actually they are controlled very similar. I would go as far to say exactly the same. Synchronous shifts are synchronous shifts. 6R80 included.
    They have a lot more going on with determining shift scheduling, which arguably makes tuning them harder vs just our 3 characteristics and 15 or so maps of different modes. A problem caused by so many manufactures using the same transmission.
    Ford breaks shifts down into just 3 phases vs ZF does 4 if you actually count the maintenance phase. The 3rd post of the sticky for "getting to know the ZF" in the dodge transmission section is a very good explanation and a lot applies to Ford as well.
    A lot of it is just stuffed under shift properties tab. The units of torque or torque/time don't really fit shift pressure or shift timing so HPT had to make the shift properties tab to put it all under.

    This applied with 6r80 and still applies for 10r80.

    conventional upshift control.jpg

    T eng- torque of engine
    T ogc - torque of off going clutch
    T occ - torque of oncoming clutch

    The Ford calibration follows these straight lines to easier describe the curvy lines that pressures actually are.

    P ogc - pressure of off going clutch
    P occ- pressure of oncoming clutch

    Its really important to know the phases of a shift for transmission tuning. Its also usually why I refrain from discussing transmission tuning with others, its all inertia phase and nothing else with most people.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  6. #66
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    If you look inside ZF8 and 10r you will see they are almost identical - of course not 1:1 but just like 6r was to ZF6.
    Even gear ratios are identical up to 8th gear, trust me on this one...ford just squeezed 2 more gears out of planetary combinations.

    Will read trough the rest later, have 3 cars to tune and everything you post requires 100% concentration

    Take a look at audi tunes for zf8 - the way trans work in rs6 for example is on another level, like different galaxy...its
    the same trans, well almost the same not sure why some manufactures do that in a such complicated way...this is beyond
    my comprehension...
    Last edited by veeefour; 11-24-2021 at 07:05 AM.

  7. #67
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    The 10r80 can also cut fuel on upshifts and make the sound. Not as good sounding as audi or mercedes or even dodge but better than nothing. Also makes the shifts feel very smooth and very fast.

  8. #68
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    6r80 can do that too - its just not working well with ford "logic".

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    I also got the shift fuel cut working on upshifts but there’s an unfortunate side effect. It sends a burst of air down the exhaust that registers a lean signal from the o2 sensors, which results in an unintended increase in spark timing due to the lambda borderline correction.

  10. #70
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    It can also cause the lean knock.

    Very easy to do just command less spark cut with ratio tables like 0.5, it will fill up the hole with injector cut.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I also got the shift fuel cut working on upshifts but there’s an unfortunate side effect. It sends a burst of air down the exhaust that registers a lean signal from the o2 sensors, which results in an unintended increase in spark timing due to the lambda borderline correction.
    I don't seem to have that issue. Im not boosted yet though and I have a F-150. Most of the time it only ends up cutting a few cylinders. It seems to learn how long it needs to do it to make the shift. I also let it pull timing still too.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFrostLSC View Post
    I don't seem to have that issue. Im not boosted yet though and I have a F-150. Most of the time it only ends up cutting a few cylinders. It seems to learn how long it needs to do it to make the shift. I also let it pull timing still too.
    oh no n/a vs boosted is completely different story...you can't even imagine trust me.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I wouldn't say its a copy of the ZF, but actually they are controlled very similar. I would go as far to say exactly the same. Synchronous shifts are synchronous shifts. 6R80 included.
    They have a lot more going on with determining shift scheduling, which arguably makes tuning them harder vs just our 3 characteristics and 15 or so maps of different modes. A problem caused by so many manufactures using the same transmission.
    Ford breaks shifts down into just 3 phases vs ZF does 4 if you actually count the maintenance phase. The 3rd post of the sticky for "getting to know the ZF" in the dodge transmission section is a very good explanation and a lot applies to Ford as well.
    A lot of it is just stuffed under shift properties tab. The units of torque or torque/time don't really fit shift pressure or shift timing so HPT had to make the shift properties tab to put it all under.

    This applied with 6r80 and still applies for 10r80.

    conventional upshift control.jpg

    T eng- torque of engine
    T ogc - torque of off going clutch
    T occ - torque of oncoming clutch

    The Ford calibration follows these straight lines to easier describe the curvy lines that pressures actually are.

    P ogc - pressure of off going clutch
    P occ- pressure of oncoming clutch

    Its really important to know the phases of a shift for transmission tuning. Its also usually why I refrain from discussing transmission tuning with others, its all inertia phase and nothing else with most people.
    I could really go for that discussion. Imo.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMS View Post
    I could really go for that discussion. Imo.
    I as well. The info available on that subject is half baked at best.

  15. #75
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    Im here as well but i shared probably everything i know...

  16. #76
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    I posted this information long before I owned a 10R80. No one discussed it or even seemed to use it.

    Ford added two speed sensors to the 10R80, ISSA and ISSB. HPT allows you to log these as "input shaft RPM" and "input shaft RPM B". Not really what they are (intermediate speed sensors), but still allowing me to calculate every part in the transmission speeds. Using relative speeds you can see the slip in each clutch. Something you can only really guess at with the 6R80, as you know the two clutchs off and on, but only have the gear ratio, TSS, and OSS to go off of.

    10R80 clutch speeds.jpg

    Clutch A and B when applied should be 0. They are brake clutches. That's easy.

    E is my favorite. Its the on coming clutch in the gears going to 3rd or 5th. To see its slip, when applied you just compare it to the input speed TSS.

    In this snip, one might think something in the transmission was slipping in 4th from the RPM. People make comments about stock power levels 10R's slipping. Nothing in the transmission was, it is the stock converter locking up, and certainly feels off or there's room to improve the feeling of it, and well the sound the car makes going through that gear(4th/5th) at part throttle.

    2-3 and 4-5 clutch E oncoming in 10R.jpg

    C, D, and F when applied can be a little tricky.
    They are all attached to a node, and they need to be compared based on the power flow through the node and around it.

    1st Power is flowing around the node, so slip in those clutches doesn't matter. its speed should be the same as planet 3 carriers with just clutch D applied.

    2nd/3rd, power is flowing through C, the node, and D. Clutch C is oncoming into 2nd, then match clutch D through 2nd and 3rd. This is essentially two clutches used to keep planet 3 sun and carrier gears speed matched. Not much chance of slip doing that.

    4th gear and higher the node's speed should be equal to ISSB, as long as F isn't slipping.
    You can then use that to determine slip when needed for C and D in 5th and 6th.

    7th and higher clutch A goes off and F becomes a direct power flow route as planet 1 is allowed to free spin. C,D,E transfer power to the sun gear of planet 4, and F alone transfers power to the ring gear of planet 4. Giving you a 1:1ratio, but unbalanced power flow through the clutches.

    I don't think anyone cares about above that.

    The ECU is calculating the slip of each clutch all the time. We should be able to log all of them not just A and B. It would be easier than setting up user maths.

    The D clutch connecting planetary 3 carrier to the node, is what "copies" and turns the ZF8 into a 10 speed. It adds a 5th and 9th gear. This could be a very big upgrade to a weak point in 7th gear, making the node permanently connected to the carrier of planetary 3. eliminate 5th and 9th, gain strength in 7th the 1:1.Very similar to what a 4R200 hub does by eliminating the 1:1.52 front planetary.
    People would probably complain you are turning it into a ZF8. GM didn't put the 10 speed into the corvette due to size, so I say if you eliminated clutch D, you would end up with a transmission bigger in size and much stronger than a ZF8.

    Find a way to permanently connect both C and D to the node, and have a 5 speed transmission. Some steel bands in the shape of clutches, but with meshing teeth instead of frictions.
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    Last edited by murfie; 11-29-2021 at 05:39 AM.
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  17. #77
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    6-7 shift in 10r is weird to say the least. Lot of intermittent false knock, and noticeably feels weaker going into 7th.

    ZF8 HP900 is a far more stronger trans, can hold 1200Nm with a proper tuning. 10r clutches says bye at 900Nm, E clutch being the weak link.

  18. #78
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    F is the weak clutch.

    C in the ZF does the same thing as E in the 10R.

    D was connected into a nod and additional clutch to send power to the 4th ring from two other parts instead of just one direct to the output. This added the weak point of the F clutch.

    ZFs E clutch doesn't exist in the 10R, unless you say it's the C clutch connected to the nod, but the moving parts connected would not be the same.

    They are similar, but very much different. Operation, control, and, shift speed tuning, will be similar.

    Unless removing C or D clutch allows you to beef up F significantly, probably not worth what I was pondering earlier.

    ford10r80.png

    ZF8.jpg
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  19. #79
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    E is a weak clutch that I see ALWAYS burnt badly:

    image.png

    You can modify this drum to accept more plates.