Injector data transfer question Gen 4 to Gen 3 Flex Fuel

[1BadSlug]

I have a truck coming up with a turbo running low boost.

He put in the large 4 hole flex fuel injectors (stock 50#) out of a Gen 4 2011 Denali 6.2L.
These injectors are now installed into a Gen 3 P59.

My question is importing the data from the E38 PCM Offset - "Offset vs. Press vs. IGNV" into the P59 PCM Offset - "Offset vs. Volts vs. VAC"

We got one table using "Pressure Delta", and the other table using "Manifold Vacuum".
How is it I can import this Gen4 data, into the Gen3 PCM?

Thank you very much.
Gen 3 offset.PNGGen 4 Offset.PNG

[blindsquirrel]

Referenced regulator or returnless?

The Gen 3 'manifold vacuum' data is only using 6 (or 5) cells from the Gen 4 pressure delta table, the cells from 400 to 480 kPa (or 408-488, depending on early/late Gen 4). I found it helpful to look at Gen3 vs Gen 4 files that use the same p/n injector to see how the different format tables relate.

2006 Trailblazer 6.0 1GNET13H762320408.hpt
2007 Trailblazer 6.0 1GNET13H872294810.hpt

[1BadSlug]

Referenced regulator or returnless?

The Gen 3 'manifold vacuum' data is only using 6 (or 5) cells from the Gen 4 pressure delta table, the cells from 400 to 480 kPa (or 408-488, depending on early/late Gen 4). I found it helpful to look at Gen3 vs Gen 4 files that use the same p/n injector to see how the different format tables relate.

2006 Trailblazer 6.0 1GNET13H762320408.hpt
2007 Trailblazer 6.0 1GNET13H872294810.hpt

The truck is returnless fuel system. Maintained 58 PSI regulated in the tank.

So looking at the two files you posted and comparing them at the 0 KPA colum and the 400 KPA colum are the same. I do undertand that.
But as you see the 2 photos I posted above are very much different.

I'm a little confused on this still.
So the Gen 4....Everything from 128 KPA to 388 doesn't get added to the Gen 3 table??

Thanks for your quick reply.

[blindsquirrel]

The Gen 3 computer has no way to use any of the Gen 4 data outside the 0-80 (400-480) cells, so yeah, it just goes unused. It can't operate in those conditions anyway. If ti goes outside the range of the table it carries on using data from the last used cell (like when in boost, which the table can't account for).

The source data you need is from a late Gen 4, with slightly different tables than the sample 2007 file I posted. But the process is the same. Paste in the cells that line up, interpolate between the filled cells across the ones left empty. It's tedious and a lot of work.

Here's another E40 file that already has the 12613412 data in it. Slight difference between a P59 but the differences are obvious and not hard to figure out what to do.

Flex Fuel Injectors in E40 - 12613412 DSteck.hpt

[1BadSlug]

The Gen 3 computer has no way to use any of the Gen 4 data outside the 0-80 (400-480) cells, so yeah, it just goes unused. It can't operate in those conditions anyway. If ti goes outside the range of the table it carries on using data from the last used cell (like when in boost, which the table can't account for).

The source data you need is from a late Gen 4, with slightly different tables than the sample 2007 file I posted. But the process is the same. Paste in the cells that line up, interpolate between the filled cells across the ones left empty. It's tedious and a lot of work.

Here's another E40 file that already has the 12613412 data in it. Slight difference between a P59 but the differences are obvious and not hard to figure out what to do.

Flex Fuel Injectors in E40 - 12613412 DSteck.hpt

oh okay. I copied over the Gen4 - 400 KPA column into the Gen 3 - 0 KPA column and interpolate vertically between.

So just making sure I'm fallowing along correctly. You're saying 0-80 KPA is the same as 400-480 KPA.

So I need to use ONLY the data from 400 KPA to 480 KPA in the Gen 4 which is only 5 columns. Then take these 5 columns from the Gen 4 and use them to fill the entire Gen 3 table?

408 kpa into 0 kpa
428 kpa into 20 kpa
448 kpa into 40 kpa
468 kpa into 60 kpa
488 kpa into 80 kpa

Then I would interpolate vertically and horizontally?

Am I fallowing along correctly?
Thanks again.

[blindsquirrel]

Yes, mostly. But since the vertical axis in the Gen 4 file is 1 volt intervals, and the Gen 3 is in half-volt, you end up pasting every other cell. Zero out the table before you start pasting so it's easier to keep track of what has been changed. Interpolate, vertically, only from one new cell to the next new cell, across the blank one. Once you have the columns filled from top to bottom, you can then interpolate horizontally from one new column to the next new column (and then from that one to the next, and then the next, etc.). Same kind of fun as puzzle games or something, if you like that sort of thing.

Will look like this before interpolating
screenshot.23-06-2021 02.00.08.png

[blindsquirrel]

...or you can just directly copy the data from the E40/12613412 file.

[1BadSlug]

Yes, mostly. But since the vertical axis in the Gen 4 file is 1 volt intervals, and the Gen 3 is in half-volt, you end up pasting every other cell. Zero out the table before you start pasting so it's easier to keep track of what has been changed. Interpolate, vertically, only from one new cell to the next new cell, across the blank one. Once you have the columns filled from top to bottom, you can then interpolate horizontally from one new column to the next new column (and then from that one to the next, and then the next, etc.). Same kind of fun as puzzle games or something, if you like that sort of thing.

Will look like this before interpolating
screenshot.23-06-2021 02.00.08.png

Perfect! That totally made sense.

I took a few screen shots as I went. I will remember to zero out the table for next time though! That would have made it a lot more simple to fallow along.
It is time consuming, but works well. I will be sure to put this process on my backup files to not ever ask again.

Thank you for your help!! I really appreciate people like yourself.

[blindsquirrel]

I find this easier to do manually, instead of the conversion spreadsheet. Especially when the sample file is a late Gen 4 and the axis labels don't match the early Gen 4 labels the spreadsheet uses.

[1BadSlug]

With that being said, all the older P59s had the same base injector tables correct? or very similar...

So the next time I have a Gen3 with this same exact injector which is a stock 50#, Part #12613412, ACDelco #217-3412. I decided to just make a tune template specific to the P59 and this 50# injector.

I was going to share my tune template, but it wont let me upload the file...

[JakeRobb]

I found this thread searching for injector data from an LS3 (42# injector P/N 12576341, also used in L99, LS7, and I suspect some others), for use with my LS1 / P01 / 0411 PCM.

I found what I needed in a file uploaded by @DSteck and linked here.

[blindsquirrel]

LS3 was one that existed when the conversion spreadsheet was made, and has the same 128-640 axis labels as the spreadsheet was built for, so it works on those. It's the post-2009 128-768 axis source files where the spreadsheet falls down.

[JakeRobb]

That’s cool. I’ve now re-read this thread three times (in addition to my first pass before replying above). I don’t see where to get the spreadsheet? Sometimes I get selective vision and can’t find things unless they’re moving.

Anyway, I’m a software engineer, and I could add a tool to my website that could do this translation properly. It already has a few automotive calculator-y tools. Come to think of it, I could also make a tune file repository that doesn’t have to be constrained by the EPA’s rules. I might even be able to figure out the .hpt file format and make modifications directly! Not sure when I’d have time, but it sounds like a fun side project. HPTuners is cool software, but it leaves a lot to be desired!

[blindsquirrel]

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-To-LS1-Format (note the post/spreadsheet creation date)

description of the issue here, with visuals: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...t-doesn-t-work

[eXo3901]

Would using the curve fitting/polynomial functions within excel not solve the issue with that spreadsheet? Source data in, calc the function from source data, apply function to new axis range.

[TheMechanic]

Would using the curve fitting/polynomial functions within excel not solve the issue with that spreadsheet? Source data in, calc the function from source data, apply function to new axis range.

To be honest the swap has been done so many times for stock injector swaps that you need only use one of Squirrel's tunes and do a "Copy Over Selected Differences". SUPER easy

[blindsquirrel]

Complex mathematics are not compatible with my brain structure, I finally had to accept that fact 35 years ago. I jokingly told myself I had some kind of 'number dyslexia' and only recently found out, well shit, that's a real thing that real people have; I'm not just dumb or lazy when it comes to math as I was told repeatedly as a child.

Yes, it would be easier to do with a spreadsheet, somebody who knows how making the updated spreadsheet that can handle multiple axes formats would be a fantastic solution. I'm just not the one to make that particular tool. Learning enough to know even where to start with learning to build a conversion tool is beyond me. But I can follow my own made-up steps for converting one tune file format into another format, and then interpolating across the missing data.

[blindsquirrel]

(repeatedly failed Algebra I, but straight A's in any kind of Geometry - if I can see the thing in my head I'm good to go, if it's vague concepts and imaginary number shit I just get mad and quit)

[JakeRobb]

Yes, it would be easier to do with a spreadsheet, somebody who knows how making the updated spreadsheet that can handle multiple axes formats would be a fantastic solution. I'm just not the one to make that particular tool. Learning enough to know even where to start with learning to build a conversion tool is beyond me. But I can follow my own made-up steps for converting one tune file format into another format, and then interpolating across the missing data.

This sort of work is pretty up my alley, and I’ve been tossing around the idea of building something like this.

[blindsquirrel]

One suggestion, make sure there is a base fuel pressure input that enables data to be taken from the correct range of Gen 4 cells. The 400-480kPa range is only correct if you have 58PSI. But 50PSI would need to come from the 344-424 Gen 4 cells, 65PSI from 448-528 cells, etc.