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Thread: i tuned ve and maf seperate but when i put them together goes lean

  1. #1
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    i tuned ve and maf seperate but when i put them together it goes extremely lean

    it is a 2004 lq4 swapped into a 1970 ford crew cab with true dual exhaust and a cam i tuned the ve and maf seperatly here is the ve log from my last log for it almost perfect ve22.hpl maf last log run maf9.hpl maf +ve together and how it goes crazy lean maf+ve.hpl and my scanner layout maf +ve.Layout.xml ve+maf tune file 11 crew cab 1 BAR MAF ENHANCED REAL TIME TUNING idle rpm stock.hpt ve final tune file 41 crew cab ve tuning extrapolating high maps with math.hpt and maf final tune file 12 maf tuning.hpt this is my first car that i have tuned, by themselves the maf and ve are really good as far as i can tell it runs almost spot on the afr that is being commanded but for some reason when i put them together it goes extremely lean if you need anything else let me know. How do i go about fixing this and if anyone can explain why this is happening so i can learn from it and so it doesn't happen again that would be great thank you.
    Last edited by jamesv1956; 06-28-2022 at 06:14 PM. Reason: clarification

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    I didn't look very close
    I'm guessing when you tune them individually you are open loop with wideband in bank 2?

    Then when you put them back together you go back closed loop?
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

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    yes that is exactly how ive been doing it

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    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    When you say you are spot on with your AFR, are you looking at your fuel trims shown in this picture?
    Cause the log this snip is from. Your MAF is about 7% rich (Its using your "boost Math" which I'm guessing is your user defined wideband transformation?)
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    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesv1956 View Post
    yes that is exactly how ive been doing it
    Okay
    Let me get a good picture of what I see. It might not be right but its worth looking into.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    So this is from your first posted log. See your AFR table showing rich.
    Notice your o2 bank 2 pretty much flatlined rich, agreeing with your wideband...

    I haven't tuned too much with a wideband and all mine have been straight forward, this just stood out to me.

    Now I'm not sure which theory is right because I'm not sure what is causing the bank 1 o2 to "trim".
    Is that an indication something is wrong with that bank because in open loop I don't think you should be triming..

    But on the other side, if that is normal and you are adjusting your MAF and VE off of a bank that is pegged rich, well your probably going to be lean when going back into closed loop

    Either way I think ya have something not Tune related to figure out

    Keep us posted
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    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

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    Capture maf tuning.JPG circled is the percent error of maf table by comparing wideband to commanded here at about same time shot as yours it is showing -2.2 percent this is what i was talking about am i looking at it wrong were are you seeing the 7 % on the one you showed me i cant see that thank you for your help

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    i think the seven percent one is my ve log i just had that table setup and it was just going in the backround

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    And in your log with them tied back together, 2 seems to be bias rich.
    1 trims somewhat normal
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

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    so should the 02s be occilating together

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesv1956 View Post
    so should the 02s be occilating together
    For the most part yes.
    One might go low/high for a bit, then they other might. But in general they should be pretty consistent.
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner dhoagland's Avatar
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    Here is a log of mine. You can see they are lazy at idle/low RPM but they are somewhat consistent.
    Follow the log to above 2000 RPM and see they almost mirror each other
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

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    ok so i got the trims lower i added 30% to my maf table which brought my trims much closer they still need more work but its getting better im not sure if this is the right way to do it but it seems to be helping anyone have some advice to make this easier faster and more simple than this22-06-28 19-28-55.hpl this is after adding 30 percent to all of it i removed some up high after this so higher up i probly added 20 % and down low I probably added closer to 40% and it still could use more work but im glad it isn't 30% lean anymore

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    ok would having one new o2 sensor and one old one have something to do with that what is that injector tip temp that you are logging is that something a person should log when doing this what does a person do with it

  15. #15
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    Injector Tip Temp is not on GEN 3
    It is pretty important on GEN 4 as its an offset in injector data (Basically an adder to deal with heat soak).

    On the o2, good possibility...

    Okay, Next we need to get some filters in your graphs.
    For Tuning your MAF and VE you need to dial steady state conditions. Minimal Throttle movements, no coast down data, no DIFCO
    Do light throttle/idle. Move into PE, Then WOT

    In this log you were closed loop but seem to be still using your WB.
    So I'm assuming it has its own bung and you were not putting it in place of the o2 ?
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

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    Yes it has its own bung how do you setup filters so with filters it probably makes it a lot faster and easier

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesv1956 View Post
    Yes it has its own bung how do you setup filters so with filters it probably makes it a lot faster and easier
    Filters keep your data more accurate. So that could keep you from chasing your tail.
    Your discipline with your right foot does too, LOL...

    I'll work on some basic filters for ya and send them back to ya. Probably be tomorrow.
    You have a cable Throttle Body? Cause I see IAC maxed out indicating you need some TB Calibration. Usually not dialed in until your MAF and VE are dialed. But in this case it might be a good idea to take a look at it
    2011 Camaro 2SS Convertible L99 Bone Stock for now
    2003 Dodge 2500 5.9 Cummins QC 4x4. Airaid, 2nd Gen Intake, Grid Heater Delete, D-Tech 62/65/12, Magnaflow. Bully Dog: Propane Injection, Triple Dog W/Outlook Crazy Larry. Edge EZ, BD Flow-Max, 48RE: Sonnax Sure Cure/Transgo combination, Derale turbulator, billet input, Triple Disc, Super servo, 4 ring Accumulator. :beer

  18. #18
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    It has a electronic throttle body