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Thread: Gen 1 coyote Surging pups and bangs in part throttle

  1. #1
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    Gen 1 coyote Surging pups and bangs in part throttle

    Hello Guys , i need a help to figure this out

    the issue happing in mid load part throttle from 1000-2000 rpm in 5th or 6th gear it starts to surges pretty bad and pups and bangs from exhause

    i have tried to lower the ETC WOT Start to 200 but that didn't help

    i feel it's from torque tables or Driver Demand but i don't know which table will fix this issue

    Car specs : 2012 Ford Mustang GT , Auto , 3.55 rear gears

    Mods : Ported Boss 302 IM , Pmas tune req CAI , BBK 1 7/8 LT headers , off-road x pipe , FRPP 47lb Injectors , VMP BAP .

    okay i was going back and forth to dial this tune first dial in the 47lb injectors data , MAF data , change the Manifold Volume to ( 11.74 ) , changing all the SD maps , play around with the VCT tuning , dial in the Spark tuning , lambda , Trans tuning ....etc
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    Seems to be lots of error from your oxygen sensors causing fuel flow to be unstable.

    Could be a miss fire, exhaust leak, failing oxygen sensors.
    If you are going to change anything in the tune, try raising the CL enable temp to keep in in OL and see how it does. Just to confirm its more stable with out the feedback from the sensors or not, and return it to default value.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Seems to be lots of error from your oxygen sensors causing fuel flow to be unstable.

    Could be a miss fire, exhaust leak, failing oxygen sensors.
    If you are going to change anything in the tune, try raising the CL enable temp to keep in in OL and see how it does. Just to confirm its more stable with out the feedback from the sensors or not, and return it to default value.
    I doubt it’s misfire or exhaust leak because in Misfire channel in the log she didn’t do misfire , for exhaust leak the car has new Muffler and i let the Fab Workshop check if there’s a leak in any spots of my whole exhaust and there’s no leaks , O2 sensors is new 1 month old

    I think its from CL temp because I disabled it from my tune so as OL I’ll try to re enable them and rise the temp and try again thanks

  4. #4
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    You need more timing in mapped point 8. You added it to the fuel economy table so the above .5 load, VCT has 70* overlap 1000 to 2000 RPM with spark advance as low as 9*.
    Borderline and MBT both need more advance above .5 load for sure. Increase and smooth all of both tables. at .55 load, 500 to 1000 RPM you can add 5*, at 1500 you can add 10*. Increase it all though, this timing will only be ran higher than .5 load.

  5. #5
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    Why the need for the bap on this set up? Did that start after it was added?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    You need more timing in mapped point 8. You added it to the fuel economy table so the above .5 load, VCT has 70* overlap 1000 to 2000 RPM with spark advance as low as 9*.
    Borderline and MBT both need more advance above .5 load for sure. Increase and smooth all of both tables. at .55 load, 500 to 1000 RPM you can add 5*, at 1500 you can add 10*. Increase it all though, this timing will only be ran higher than .5 load.
    Definitely I’ll consider that thanks

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill88stang View Post
    Why the need for the bap on this set up? Did that start after it was added?
    Nah the bap is there because i use C85 Flex fuel and that’s why i added LU47’s

    The problem has pops up since i tuned my car by myself before she was tuned by Shaun from AED

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    You need more timing in mapped point 8. You added it to the fuel economy table so the above .5 load, VCT has 70* overlap 1000 to 2000 RPM with spark advance as low as 9*.
    Borderline and MBT both need more advance above .5 load for sure. Increase and smooth all of both tables. at .55 load, 500 to 1000 RPM you can add 5*, at 1500 you can add 10*. Increase it all though, this timing will only be ran higher than .5 load.
    i have added more timing mapped 8 and 2-3 for ( best fuel economy and fuel economy tables ) , Borderline and MPT , .55 to .65 from 500 to 1000 RPM added 5* , 1500 to 2500 added 10* and smooth both of tables

    unfortunately she didn't like that knocking in .55 load and misfiring DTC P0300 , P0302 , P0308

    and make the issue even worse

  9. #9
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    tried multiple changes on the tune unfortunately nothing solve the surging problem

    all the changes has done in tune :

    airflow > General > Min Load > 0.03

    airflow > ETC > Padel Pos Wot Start > Return to stock 501

    airflow > ETC > Tip In Mgmt Enabled

    Exhaust > TEMP > Exhaust Temp > Lower the values in tables

    Fuel > O2 Sensors > Transport Delay > lower the values by 20%

    Fuel > O2 sensors > Transport Time Constant lower the values by 20%

    Fuel > Open Loop / Base > Cold/Warm up > Enable ECT > Rise it to 160F

    Fuel > Open Loop / Base > Cold/Warm Up > Disable ECT > Rise it to 150F

    Fuel > Temp Control > Flange Temp Control > Enable > Flange OT Enable Rise it to 1,700F

    Fuel > Temp Control > O2 Temp Control > Enable > O2 Sens OT Enable Rise it to 1,900F

    Fuel > Cutoff , DFCO > Ramp On Rate lower it to 1.00

    Torque Model > General > Inertia Torque Lower it to 0.0150

    Torque Model > Monitoring > IPC > Torque Maximum > Copied all the table from FRPP Stock Boss 302 tune

    Torque Model > Monitoring > IPC > Torque Minimum > Copied all the table from FRPP Stock Boss 302 tune

    Torque Model > Monitoring > IPC > MAP Maximum > Copied all the table from FRPP Stock Boss 302 tune

    Torque Model > Monitoring > IPC > Spark Maximum > Copied all the table from FRPP Stock Boss 302 tune

    Torque Managment > Combustion Stability Max Brake Torque > 1,180 lb-ft


    Note : Misfiring and Knocking Didn't happend Before i did the changes in Borderline and MPT mapped 8 , 2 , 3

    So i'm Pretty Sure she Start Misfiring and pull Timing Since i added timing on those Mapped points above


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Added the updated tune - Surging Log - Video when surging and poping

    LINK :

    https://we.tl/t-mdVefZK0lj
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
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    Can you pull your plugs and take a picture of them?

  11. #11
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    The surging problem is your torque tables. You'd be better off running stock torque tables and adjusting from there if needed. Stock cell values and stock axis on both..
    You see how your datalog does not match the highlighted values in the cells? That will fix your surge. Mapped point 8 is not in the fuel economy table, when you add it in the fuel eco table, extra steps are required. Any adjustment to the fuel economy table requires torque/inverse and spark adjustments.
    torqueinve.PNG

    The misfire does sound like bad spark plugs, your timing isn't advanced enough to cause knock with the fuel you're running, in my opinion.
    This is yours compared to mine on 93
    spark8.PNG

    Change your knock advance limit to 4* and slow down the rate of advance.

  12. #12
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    I see in your surge 4 log you did a stationary RPM step log. These steps looks good and indicate your MAF and injector data are ok, until you let it return to idle. At idle immediately after these steps you have massive fuel error and the fuel trims didn't seem in control just like your first log.
    You then seemed to drive away, and you can see the fuel trims take some time to get in control from the lower RPM error. I think this is a hardware problem that presents itself at idle/ low RPM conditions.

    Fueling error.jpg

    When you look at your MAF in surge 4, it looks good when averaged out across just the period. Just at low air mass values it looks rich, But once you expand that to have an x axis of MAP values, you see the entire MAF shows lean error. This is just more evidence for a hardware not software source of this error.

    MAF map averaging.jpg

    There is no sense in tring to calibrate around hardware that is not operating correctly.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    The surging problem is your torque tables. You'd be better off running stock torque tables and adjusting from there if needed. Stock cell values and stock axis on both..
    You see how your datalog does not match the highlighted values in the cells? That will fix your surge. Mapped point 8 is not in the fuel economy table, when you add it in the fuel eco table, extra steps are required. Any adjustment to the fuel economy table requires torque/inverse and spark adjustments.
    torqueinve.PNG

    The misfire does sound like bad spark plugs, your timing isn't advanced enough to cause knock with the fuel you're running, in my opinion.
    This is yours compared to mine on 93
    spark8.PNG

    Change your knock advance limit to 4* and slow down the rate of advance.

    Definitely I’ll try that but before I’ll pull the Spark Plugs to see if there any problem there

    I’ll try this and let you know

    Thanks

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I see in your surge 4 log you did a stationary RPM step log. These steps looks good and indicate your MAF and injector data are ok, until you let it return to idle. At idle immediately after these steps you have massive fuel error and the fuel trims didn't seem in control just like your first log.
    You then seemed to drive away, and you can see the fuel trims take some time to get in control from the lower RPM error. I think this is a hardware problem that presents itself at idle/ low RPM conditions.

    Fueling error.jpg

    When you look at your MAF in surge 4, it looks good when averaged out across just the period. Just at low air mass values it looks rich, But once you expand that to have an x axis of MAP values, you see the entire MAF shows lean error. This is just more evidence for a hardware not software source of this error.

    MAF map averaging.jpg

    There is no sense in tring to calibrate around hardware that is not operating correctly.

    Totally Agreed after i Let out the Throttle Lambda immediately goes .84 and sometimes she did massive Backfire from exhaust

    But I remember she did the same thing on OLD PBD tune and AED tune

    The O2 Sensors Are New 3 months Old and there’s no DTC comes from them