Book on Using HP Tuners? Hey Greg Banish!

[JamesLinder]

Does anyone know whether or not there are any plans for publishing a quality book on using HP tuners with examples of actual tunes being performed and the parameters that were changed. Seems like even the best books out there do not go deeply enough into specific examples and the final parameters that were required for the optimal tune.

Since most (or all) of the tunes in the repository are not professional quality IMHO, they do not offer the type of benefit I was expecting when I bought the HP Tuners software.

I have found the two books and DVD Greg Banish has published very helpful, however the results of a dozen or more actual tunes specifying final parameters entered into every table modified would be far more useful to those of us attempting to tune our own vehicles with this product.

[tokymon]

This would me almost impossible since every car is diffrent

[JamesLinder]

It is obviously possible to show results of table values for a dozen or so of the most popular combinations. Without having tunes done by professionals, what we have in the repository is not reliable. Thus, a book would be very valuable.

[Pekka_Perkeles]

Let me try to explain.

While tuning may be a hobby for some folks like me, for some others it is strictly business. The way to earn income.

If you think about aftermarket tuning hardware and software (like Motec or FAST XFI as an example), the aim of the vendor is of course sell as many boxes & software as possible. The more folks will know how to tune these boxes, the better. It means that for these vendors, it is an advantage to share the tuning information as much as possible.

Now, in our case, GM provides the hardware (and basic software) and HP Tuners provides the way to alter parameters and also some neat tricks like CoS.

GM doesn’t care how to properly tune their hardware. HP Tuners is just a tool to tune.

Who’s responsibility is then to share and teach?

Well, there are professionals. For them, tuning is art. While I agree that behind the art is of course science and all mathematical equations and models, it is still somewhat art.

For these professionals, sharing how to tune is not mandatory. They already know how to tune different GM PCM’s. It is probably against their own business to help others. Most of them probably have a network, like we all have or should have, i.e. where to discuss about tuning. This forum is just a first step.

Back to the question: who’s responsibility is to share and teach how to tune GM PCM’s? Well, nobody. But luckily there are some books and classes you can participate. Which helps. And then you should try to create a network where sharing can be done easily. Try to meet other folks face to face and so on. Written information is helpful, but not always enough.

You may find this helpful:

http://www.thetuningschool.com/

[JamesLinder]

Thank you for your comments and the link! I hope you have a great day.

[eficalibrator]

Are you looking for
1) The final tune file for several examples (supercharged LS1, head/cam LS2, new airbox on an LS3, etc...) from which to do your own comparisons and examination of the changes, or
2) A walkthrough of the process used to derive each of the above?

If 1) is your desire, the repository is (sort of) what you're looking for, with the exception that you don't have any guarantee that the files you're looking at are either done right or run worth a damn.

If 2) is your desire, then the books and DVDs cover the process I have used to accomplish #1. The process really doesn't fundamentally change, even for boosted vs big cam or stock. I literally go through all the same steps either way. Some steps are just completed much faster depending on the hardware present.

Live classes are another option if you're willing to travel a bit. There you have the opportunity to ask questions that are specific to a vehicle or condition that may be giving you trouble.

It's really difficult to generate a solution for the masses that answers EVERY question. It would take an infinite amount of time to compile, then even longer to organize and make presentable, all for almost no compensation. The whole trick to learning EFI calibration is grasping the fundamentals and being able to apply these to whatever you happen to be working on that day. Even with my day job, tuning a modern direct injected boosted, variable cam, drive by wire, alternative fuel prototype means going back to the fundamentals at some point. I don't have someone else to ask how they made my new engine run, so I apply scientific method and change one thing at a time in a reasonable order to work my way into the final calibration. Surely people can do this on known LSx engines with arguably simpler setups in the wild too, right? I know big cams or turbos or strokers aren't always easy, but there is still a way to boil it down to trying to make one intelligent change at a time.

[JamesLinder]

Both actually, but with Tunes included that are by a professional like yourself. In my case I have a 383 stroker with 230 duration cam and 0.65 lift and 11.2 compression.

At the back of your first book you are using as your Avatar on here, you discuss tuning a Vette with a 230 cam. It would help to know what your HO timing table looked like, what your actual VE table ended up looking like, and what your new MAF curve ended up being. I have had spent hours tuning, however I would like to compare to other professional tunes on stroker motors similar to mine. See what tables the professionals modify and which they do not change. A more complete discussion covering all tables within HP Tuners that should be looked at. I assume the Cat Lightoff table and the EGR table timing adjustments should be zero'd out, but I have not seen a professional offer any advice on that topic. What rules of thumb apply with increasing the compression ratio on a LSx motor while using the same premium pump gasoline. Is reducing timing 4 degrees for a 11.2 CR motor from what is optimal for a 10.5 CR motor about right at the higher RPMs? Should the change only be about 2 degrees less at the lower RPMs? What is typically the best timing to use for idle in the park and in gear tables that apply when the throttle is closed, and what should be used in the HO timing table for the idle area (800 to 1000 RPM)? What is typical range for RAF numbers versus ECT that are used by professionals and how much air for when the table where the car is turned off (idle air vs ECT with throttle body parked). I have to believe that more specific rules of thumb could be offered to give HP Tuner folks a much better head start and this could be included in a new book at a fair price. Looks like the link provided above for the Tuning School may provide such a book; I plan to research this to find out. After buying both of your books and your DVD, I just feel I deserve more complete information than I have about tuning an LSx motor.

[JamesLinder]

Also, something as simple as what to do about cold idle surges. How are we ever going to learn the best range of values for some of these parameters such as off idle scalar, underspeed time, startup airflow decay, and all the settings associated with adaptive idle airflow. To try dialing all these in trail and error is simply not practical because there are way too many values. If the pro's would tell us which parameters we should ignore and leave stock, and the exceptions when we should change some of these parameters would indeed be a new book and worth several hundred dollars. Again, seeing examples that show how these parameter vary for different builds (a dozen are so common builds, including my stroker) would be tremendously helpful and valuable to the author selling this information.

[eficalibrator]

James, I can appreciate your position and the questions you're asking. They seem pretty typical for a lot of the people I run into and talk about this stuff with. That said, let me reiterate my usual mantra...

I will not just tell you "add 2 degrees here or 4 degrees here and you should be fine." I will teach you what things cause you to add timing and what things cause you to remove timing. Ultimately, YOU need to learn why you should push one direction or the other on your own. If I just tell you to add a certain amount of timing for a typical case, you will only know how to "tune" that one case. I would be doing you a disservice as a trainer if I left it like that. I would much rather teach a man to fish than just hand him a meal. I will not spoon feed people.

I actually cover a lot of this stuff in all of my classes. In an effort to throw the group a bone here, let me address your two issues of timing and idle airflow control:

Timing: Once you understand how a hook test is done to examine torque vs timing at one steady condition, you can solve for the right value anywhere within the HO timing table. By running several of these at key points, you start to get an idea of how much adjustment from stock is needed in various regions of this table for whatever hardware combination you happen to have in front of you that day. The cool part is that this always works and doesn't care if it's a stroker, cammed, supercharged, whatever.

Idle airflow control: We always start by fixing the "normal" conditions for a fully warmed up engine. If you get the VE and MAF models right, and have an idea of where MBT timing is, then tuning the idle control gets MUCH easier. A lot of the factory idle control tables are modifiers (adders or multipliers) to the base value. You will find that once you get the base right, these modifiers are usually not too far off. You have to resist the urge to start grabbing knobs and turning them too soon like a lot of people on the forums tend to do. A lot of what I see online (or from other "trainers") has people skipping fundamental corrections and then applying other band-aids to fix it later when they could have avoided the issue in the first place. Just because you have access to ~300 tables in HPT doesn't mean they all need fiddling right away.

[Pekka_Perkeles]

I will not just tell you "add 2 degrees here or 4 degrees here and you should be fine." I will teach you what things cause you to add timing and what things cause you to remove timing. Ultimately, YOU need to learn why you should push one direction or the other on your own. If I just tell you to add a certain amount of timing for a typical case, you will only know how to "tune" that one case. I would be doing you a disservice as a trainer if I left it like that.

This, I fully agree.

However, as always, it has two sides of the story.

General rules like "just add x grams" or "x degrees" may be just enough to get a particular combination of tuning parts (cam, heads, etc) work very well.

But then, how do you know if "general rules of tuned engine" fits your combination? You don't. And there's the problem.

As an example: while it is true that big cams need more air at idle, there are several things you can or need to tune. It may be idle rpm, it may be AFR, it may be just switching to OL, it may be because of wrong injector data, it may be because of overlap (tune injector timing) and so on and on...

If you really want to learn how to tune, just forget what's been said here. Tuning is universal, it's the same for any engine, no matter if it's new or old, from the factory or from the aftermarket.

With all this being said: basic advice/knowhow how to tune for example idle airflow is really important for beginners, and without those advices I doubt HPt would have as many users it has today.

[RACELS1]

I've been to greg's basic and advanced GM classes. Greg drills into you to start with the basics. You don't want to build a million dollar house on a poor foundation!!

[98S10]

^^^Make that post a sticky or whatever you call a good statement, and give that guy a cigar. It also goes back to what efi calibrator just said a few posts up. Example would be guys saying fuel transients just "have to be adjusted" way before they even have a ve or maf table that is correct. A gross misguided perception by the new "wave" of efi tuners that charge people money for more than the basic tuning adjustments, without the aid of a dyno or extensive time and effort to get the ve,maf and timing even close first.

[flame]

Every vehicle is different but the same order of steps is used to get to the end result. Once you know the order dig in. Too many people want the quick and dirty which may get results until the weather changes etc. Skip a step and chase your tail.

[JamesLinder]

I agree 100% with flame, however I believe Greg withholds too many specific pieces of information based on what we spend on his books and DVDs. If he shared the specifics with us then he would not be able to attract as many folks to his tuning classes - but these classes only make sense if you are tuning for a living versus just wanting to get your one or two performance cars tuned with the software we've purchased. I been tuning LS1 and stroker LS1 for years and it just takes many hours to dial in a specific build. The more help we give one another the quicker this goes.

[Ed39]

IMO there is 2 ways to skin a horse. Greg's way by the book with a Dyno and wideband is the most accurate and constant way. But hp tuners is targeted to the mas production of back yard tuners. Greg's information very helpful and achieves specific changes/ accurate tunning can be difficult to someone with no Dyno and no wideband. I think an hp tuners book for new people would be nice. I.e the common things such as torque management. and maybe better description of things in hp tuners it self. even in the help section its hard to understand what every little thing dose. For the most part the gm engines are similar and similar things can be brought from engine to engine. When you start adding supercharges changing the displacement you really gotta know your stuff. That would be extremely hard to translate specific changes like that into a book cause there is to many variables that could change. The repository is helpful but it's just to give you an "idea" or direction to go in. The rest is up to you and your knowledge to figure it out

This is my opinion and it took a year for me to achieve the results but my motor is still in one piece about to hit 100k