Need tuning help for a 5th Inj.

[extremevx]

I have a 5th injector setup on my LNF with a devils Own controller. Also, have an EFR 6758 Turbo.

Im maxing out at 6.1ms inj. at 17lbs of boost. thats also when my Controller starting to dump fuel. Ofcourse my STFT's goto -30 and AFR WB goes to .66 or something. Can someone point me in the right direction to tune the ecm for this 5th inj. I know it has something to do with changing the MAF lbs./min. lowering them in at that HZ to make the engine want to lowere the ms injection time. My log is posted.

[ScarabEpic22]

Ok, so you've maxed out your existing injectors and when the ECM hits 6.1ms and 17psi, the extra 5th injector comes on? How does the controller determine when to come on, RPM, MAP/boost, injector duty cycle? What controller, how can you tune it, etc?

Hate to ask, but why not run bigger injectors? ID2000s would probably flow plenty of fuel for your application.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Ok first of all don't spray the 5th unless its over 6. Once you do spray you have to recalibration the base table for the areas affected by the addition injection controller. The more input parameters involved In the devils own the better.

The goal is to find max and spray them down to 4.5 -5 ms after maf base correction no lower than 3.7 to obtain max trq from the di units.

[Freakotec]

Just out of curiosity, what's your end game here for fueling? Realistically, are you planning on running ethanol at some point or are you sticking with 93 for the most part? If you're plans are to only run 93, then you should quite honestly ditch the 5th injector setup and just utilize the stock fuel system. You'll never max out the stock fuel system on an efr6758 on gas so you're just making your life much more difficult imo.

[extremevx]

I am planning to go ethanol in the future. Right now I have to drive 80 miles to get it and since they dont sell alot of it, its crappy. I thought the stock fuel system could handle the 6758 too, but at 16lbs of boost I was seeing over 6ms inj. duration and it would start popping in the exhaust. I will post my logs so you guys can see what Im talking about.

also, my STFT's will go to zero and my WB O2 will go to 1.5 lambda. Can anyone tell me why that is?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

It should see the extra fuel and go negative trims. You dont adjust the maf curve because its a linear sensor. You use the base table to re correct it but should log ltft+stft on the histo.

If there's a log attached to your new post ill check it when I'm not on my iphone.

[extremevx]

should I even need my 5th injector if running 93, even with a efr6758?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Ported head yeah you'll run out

[Freakotec]

I am planning to go ethanol in the future. Right now I have to drive 80 miles to get it and since they dont sell alot of it, its crappy. I thought the stock fuel system could handle the 6758 too, but at 16lbs of boost I was seeing over 6ms inj. duration and it would start popping in the exhaust. I will post my logs so you guys can see what Im talking about.

also, my STFT's will go to zero and my WB O2 will go to 1.5 lambda. Can anyone tell me why that is?

Wow you are pushing some serious boost man. I'm seeing as high as 27.5psi in portions of the log and your DALs coincide with this. Pull back on the boost a bit and dial things in a little better before you run into any issues mechanically. It also looks to me like you're trying to over compensate for a bunch of turbo lag with TONS of wgdc and cranked DALs through the roof. The 6758 shouldn't be nearly this laggy so I'm thinking the wg actuator preload may possibly need to be adjusted, or something else is going on here. Either way, dial things way back in the tune and get it dialed in much better with lower boost pressure.

I can tell you first hand that the stock fuel system can and will handle the 6758 on 93 just fine. I ran one to 26psi with no injector issues. Just turn up the rail pressure a bit and keep the pulse width below 29%. I still insist that the 5th injector is completely overkill without running ethanol. I would seriously consider disconnecting it until the time comes where you actually need it for ethanol.

[extremevx]

I disconected it this morning. Thw last lod I posted is without it. I didnt realize that my boost is that high. In my scanner Im showing almost 16psi boost guage pressure. I thought the 27psi was absolute. Dave at Performance Autowerks emailed me this tune. Of course he was just going by what I told him I had. He told me it would need tweaked, but that he would get me in the ballpark.

[Freakotec]

290kpa - 99.28kpa baro (which is the actual baro pressure in your log) = 190.72kpa actual

190.72kpa = 27.66psi

[extremevx]

Ok..now I'm really confused. I thought boost pressure was manifold absolute pressure or boost low res. minus baro pressure would give you guage pressure or boost pressure. Because the boost PID that I got from the scanner config/histogram repository is how it is doing it.

Boost Pressure (psig) -
Formula: (Boost Sensor - BARO) / 6.894757

Name: Boost
Abbrv: Bst
Sensor: none selected
Units: psi
Function: ([PID.2336.MET] - [PID.2340.MET]) / 6.894757

This is what im using. Is it the correct one? It reads the same as the Boost guage on the display in my dash.

[Freakotec]

Ok..now I'm really confused. I thought boost pressure was manifold absolute pressure or boost low res. (290kpa) minus baro pressure (99.28kpa) would give you guage pressure or boost pressure (190.72kpa = 27.66psi). Because the boost PID that I got from the scanner config/histogram repository is how it is doing it.

Boost Pressure (psig) -
Formula: (Boost Sensor - BARO) / 6.894757

Name: Boost
Abbrv: Bst
Sensor: none selected
Units: psi
Function: ([PID.2336.MET] - [PID.2340.MET]) / 6.894757

This is what im using. Is it the correct one? It reads the same as the Boost guage on the display in my dash.

I'm not entirely sure why you're confused because you reiterated exactly what I put in numeral form below..lol.. I put the values in red and included them in your post so you can see.

As far as the low res boost pid goes, use this one. [PID.2338.PSI]-[PID.51.PSI] Call it something like Lower Charge Pipe boost or whatever you wish, but use that as your equation.

290kpa - 99.28kpa baro (which is the actual baro pressure in your log) = 190.72kpa actual

190.72kpa = 27.66psi

[extremevx]

OK...I guess I owe you an apology. I went back and looked at everything. That PID I guess is wrong or I did something wrong with it. When I pull my table up and look at it along with the scan, I see what your talking about. I even seen a spot where I hit 31psi in my last log. Your completly correct. Here the whole time I was subtracting baro from the boost low res. From that value I was thinking boost was around 16-17psi. So I kept jacking up the air loads and WG duty cyle. I owe you one Freakotec. So, now Im thinking. If I lower my DALS and Boost, then Maybe I wont be maxing my INJ duration at over 6.0ms. But as Cobaltoverbooster has said, since my head is ported I will be blowing more air through it for a given amount of boost and therefore may need to run the 5th inj. since the head is ported along with a ported intake manifold and exhaust manifol. 3in catless DP and a 3in SOLO street race w/o mufflers. Damn this thing is loud...LOL

[Freakotec]

No worries man. I still say try dialing it in without the 5th injector for now and see how it goes. I honestly missed where you said you have a ported head so that's my bad BUT, I still say no 5th injector until you go ethanol. Like I had said earlier, I tuned an lnf balt with the efr6758 and the fuel system was plenty stable at the 25psi I had him setup for. Try cranking up your rail pressure a bit to around 2300psi, set up your dals as a flat 255, bring your wgdc down to about 90% and below, and go from there with the tune. Once you boost your rail pressure up a bit it will help with the injector dc and pulse width closing up a bit. Once everything looks good at 22psi slowly start bringing up the boost to where you ultimately want it to be and see how the fuel system is handling it. Also get those trims in line at wot!! lol

[|V3nom|]

OK...I guess I owe you an apology. I went back and looked at everything. That PID I guess is wrong or I did something wrong with it. When I pull my table up and look at it along with the scan, I see what your talking about. I even seen a spot where I hit 31psi in my last log. Your completly correct. Here the whole time I was subtracting baro from the boost low res. From that value I was thinking boost was around 16-17psi. So I kept jacking up the air loads and WG duty cyle. I owe you one Freakotec. So, now Im thinking. If I lower my DALS and Boost, then Maybe I wont be maxing my INJ duration at over 6.0ms. But as Cobaltoverbooster has said, since my head is ported I will be blowing more air through it for a given amount of boost and therefore may need to run the 5th inj. since the head is ported along with a ported intake manifold and exhaust manifol. 3in catless DP and a 3in SOLO street race w/o mufflers. Damn this thing is loud...LOL

id like to hear it run!

[extremevx]

It actually starts to get quieter above 4000rpms. But Im going up to Solo performance this weekend to have a resonator put in just to take the edge off. Hopefully that will also give me some of my torque back that I lost from the ported head.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

best option would be to first acquire the proper boost levels and cam positions as mentioned by others sharing good hints. Freako and Venom have been around a while and always have something good to contribute.
leave the 5th injector off but installed, see if the factory keeps up. if the ported head gets in the way as i expect it will, then just add some in the small areas where it gets to high and leave the rest alone.

ethanol will most definitely require the use of the 5th so having it installed and disconnected means you just apply power to it and start your new ethanol tune.
once the ethanol tune is done you can switch between the two simply by re-flashing the proper tune and connecting/disconnecting power or ground to the devils own to control the 5th injector. (if you make an e tune and remove the devils own power, the settings in the devils will remain when you turn the power back on. but you know this already)

resonators are minimal restriction exhaust components. race mufflers that are most commonly attached at the end of open headers are actually modified resonators. the addition of a muffler or resonator will not help the head as much as you may think. removing the edge on the short turn floor causes a massive change in cylinder flow dynamics.....as stated by myself on many forums it would be best to not touch it unless using dynamic flow software to calculate the pattern of incoming air into the cylinder. without it its a shoot in the wind and the effects can be drastic as i have found out the hard way. i ported my cylinder heads just as i did 996, 997 cup heads and they were beautiful when complete. excellent flow numbers for a first test head...yatta yatta yatta but the change to the efficiency of atomizing fuel and swirl pattern effected the combustion efficiency so much that i made 20 hp less than a full factory motor at 20 psi than a 20 psi charge pipe, factory intercooler, catless dp, and 3" hahn resonator to dump tube driver side before axle.

i will upload my head pictures before and after so you may compare via visual. if you carved the lip out as u describe, you will no longer be able to compare your car to any other car on the forums. the only thing that will look close is the way the scanner values ramp up during a pull. everything else like timing, cam position, desired fuel pressure and duration, and lb/min maf and ve will all be at different levels.
always remember this if anything: the target values in the scanner have changed, not the procedure in which you re-calibrate the ecu.

[extremevx]

Thats a good idea. I dont want to run the 5th inj. unless I have to on 93. I may even back it down in boost to a point where I wont need to run it. Whats a few lost HP if you dont have to worry about the hassle

[cobaltssoverbooster]

to be honest, i set most alternate fuel tunes up that way and people dont complain. what is 400whp on the street for? maybe a show here or there....
but the ethanol makes well over 400 and due to location distances is usually only ran at the track which is where the second tune come into play.