Coyote 5.0L Single Turbo Advice

[96gt4.6]

I'm in the planning phases of my turbo build currently, and i'm looking for some input on the O2 sensor setup/location and operation.

Factory, the Coyote has 2 wideband sensors, one each bank. I'm using a single turbo so I am going to join the exhaust stream into 1 outlet for the turbo Flange. I know from previous experience it's best to have the O2 sensor in the down pipe, as it seems as if leaving the sensor on the hot side of the system before the turbo, affects readings.

My next thoughts, are to leave the RH side O2 out (this is the side I plan on omitting), and leave the DTC's enabled but the MIL status to none. This way, the system should fuel off of only 1 O2 sensor, which will be located in the down pipe.

I had planned on giving this idea a shot while the car is still up and running N/A and seeing how the stock ECU reacts to having 1 O2 missing/failed. I believe, it will then fuel both banks the same off of the 1 remaining sensor, which should work just fine.

I am using a stock 2012 F150 ECU/OS. The car is a 2003 Marauder that has been up and running N/A since October this year.

Again, any ideas or experience in this area is very helpful before I begin the next phase of this build!

[96gt4.6]

Edit:

I see this single Hellion kit seems to utilize the sensors in the stock location, and even references them being in the pre turbo hot-side. It appears that leaving them there, and simply making sure the MAF transfer function is spot on, will be all that is needed?

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-t...to-gallery/#30

[caniggia]

I always leave o2's in my turbo custom builds in stock location, i would do that this way.

[Alex5.0]

I never install a wideband when there is back pressure . Excessive back pressure will affect the reading . Better to install post-turbo .

[caniggia]

No change, i tested it twice.

[wbt]

I worked on a JPC single on a 2014 where the widebands are in the stock locations. JPC also recommends an additional wideband in the DP area.

That said, I haven't had any issues with tuning or getting the car dialed in using the stock locations.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you guys.

In my previous experiences I had left the Narrow Band's in the back-pressure exposed area/stock locations (NOT for tuning purposes obviously! Simply for driveability and closed loop PCM feedback), and put the wideband in the down pipe. However, I noticed on the Coyote builds by various aftermarket companies that they are leaving them in the stock locations, so I was curious. Your experienced answers are very helpful! I believe I will follow said advice and leave them in the stock location.

My next question.

Typically my hot side consisted of a cross over pipe from the RH bank, into a custom made log manifold on the LH bank, which then feeds into the turbo. The issue here, is that your exhaust stream from the RH bank, influences the trim's from the LH bank, as that sensor is exposed to the combined exhaust streams. The reasoning for this type of hot side configuration, is it saves space.

I see the easier route on this Coyote would probably be to run two separate hot side pipes from each bank, converging into a Y pipe right before the turbo. Space might be a constraint, but it is doable.

However, what I previously did on the GEN 3 LS setups, was simply run 1 O2 sensor, leave the fault codes that will set from the missing bank/sensor enabled less the MIL illumination. This will let the ECU use one sensor for fueling both banks. I understand, this leaves less room for failure if the only sensor fueling the system gets skewed/quits, but it seems to work great for closed loop fuel control and driveability in custom applications, at least for me.

However, I have yet to try this method by simply disabling one 02 on my Coyote Marauder I'm about to turbo, before I start fabrication. If I could still use only 1 sensor in the stream and a log manifold setup, this would be most ideal for my space constraints on this car. I will try disabling one and fueling only off of 1 side, and report back.

any additional tips or advice will most certainly be appreciated!

[mechanicboy]

I'm not sure this is helpful, but I'll say it anyway. The coyote is known for piston 8 damage on boosted engines, both supercharged and turbo. Some believe this is because cooling isn't as well on #8 as the other cylinders while other believe it's fueling is slightly off because it's the furthest point from the TB(or something like that). Both of these conditions could worsen if you use the log exhaust on that bank, thus moving more heat to it and by eliminating one o2 making it less likely to correct for fueling issues. If it's a fueling issue I believe I say a table to adjust individual fueling and timing by individual cylinder which may help alleviate this.

My gut says leave both in.

This is my $0.02 but I don't have experience with full custom turbo builds.

P.S. Limited space on a panther, LOL. Also, great work putting the Coyote in there. I was following your build for a while but last I checked HP tuners hadn't fixed the EPATs. I sent you a PM about it on here but you never responded.

[96gt4.6]

I just checked and indeed missed your PM! Sorry about that, it's taken care of now.

No worries at all sir, your opinion is valid and much appreciated. Indeed, there are per-cylinder fueling tables in the tune, but I agree if there are heat issues with that cylinder adding the log on that side will create more issues, so it's food for thought.

At this point though the hot side will certainly be contained on the LH side of the engine bay. All of the AC components/lines and the general width of the 5.0L 4v consumes that side rather well. The driver side is very open, and I'm probably being more pessimistic with my fitment estimates.

[wbt]

I'm not sure this is helpful, but I'll say it anyway. The coyote is known for piston 8 damage on boosted engines, both supercharged and turbo. Some believe this is because cooling isn't as well on #8 as the other cylinders while other believe it's fueling is slightly off because it's the furthest point from the TB(or something like that). Both of these conditions could worsen if you use the log exhaust on that bank, thus moving more heat to it and by eliminating one o2 making it less likely to correct for fueling issues. If it's a fueling issue I believe I say a table to adjust individual fueling and timing by individual cylinder which may help alleviate this.

My gut says leave both in.

This is my $0.02 but I don't have experience with full custom turbo builds.

P.S. Limited space on a panther, LOL. Also, great work putting the Coyote in there. I was following your build for a while but last I checked HP tuners hadn't fixed the EPATs. I sent you a PM about it on here but you never responded.

This is garbage. Each intake port has it's own injector, this isn't a carburetor.

Not one person is saying eliminate the o2's from either bank. What is being said is add a 3rd o2 into the DP and ALSO log it. This is possible using the pro version of the HPT MPVI.

The #8 hype is just that. A proper tune is the solution.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you wbt.

I had seen in the Coyote Cook Book that they talk about per-cylinder fueling adjustments, and the issues seen on some of the early Coyote's and how to correct it in the tuning as factory tunes started to in the later years.

So far, this is setting up as:

Traditional dual fed hot side into a merge pipe vs. the traditional log style manifold setup i've previously been fabricating.

Running a dedicated wideband in the DP which will be the final say in tuning, as well as keeping the stock wide bands in their stock locations each bank.

Let's talk tube sizes. I usually use 2.5" tubing each bank, with a 3" downpipe, followed up by a straight through race type bullet muffler (this car will see the downpipe split into true dual 2.5" under the car) Seem fit for this application? My goals are a maximum of 10-14 psi on race fuel, with this stock F150 Coyote longblock/Mustang intake cams. Setup will utilize an air-to-air intercooler with 2.5" charge piping.

[mechanicboy]

This is garbage.

not sure why you need to try and insult like that. I'll explain myself line-by-line.

Each intake port has it's own injector, this isn't a carburetor.

Exactly. Let's get back to the basics of an engine. An engine is a air pump. The air coming into the engine is distributed, in this case, by the intake manifold with a single throttle body at the front making the air path traveled, the speeds it travels, turbulences, etc different for each cylinder making an imperfect distribution of air. Now if we have the exact same amount of fuel going into each cylinder but not the exact same amount of air then the Air/Fuel ratio of each cylinder will be different creating lean and rich conditions in different cylinders. The o2 sensor will see a rough average of the 4 cylinders on the bank. This is why the factory tune (at least mine) have corrections for individual cylinder air adjustments.

Now if each cylinder had it's on TB and injector, equal length exhaust, etc then we could be much closer to perfect.

I see my error in wording in my original post that may be confusing. What I meant is it's the air distribution affecting A/F ratio, not the fueling itself.

Not one person is saying eliminate the o2's from either bank. What is being said is add a 3rd o2 into the DP and ALSO log it. This is possible using the pro version of the HPT MPVI.

The OP inquired about removing one as he's done in the past, I put my $0.02 in. More O2s the better.

The #8 hype is just that. A proper tune is the solution.

Not based on my years of experience with the coyote, at least not in the early days of tuning. Search the forums and find failures of just the piston, it's almost always #8(I did see a #6 recently on a blown F150 that was tuned by MPT and even the tuner commented on their surprise it wasn't the #8). Rod failure is not consistent in my findings, but usually seems to be 2-3 or 5-6.

OP, I can provide references to some failures if you'd like.

I do agree that proper tuning is the solution, that is why I brought this up.

[mechanicboy]

Let's talk tube sizes. I usually use 2.5" tubing each bank, with a 3" downpipe, followed up by a straight through race type bullet muffler (this car will see the downpipe split into true dual 2.5" under the car) Seem fit for this application? My goals are a maximum of 10-14 psi on race fuel, with this stock F150 Coyote longblock/Mustang intake cams. Setup will utilize an air-to-air intercooler with 2.5" charge piping.

As I said earlier, I don't have experience with full custom turbo builds. I do have experience modifying factory turbo vehicles and here's my $0.02. A quick calculation(based on inside diameters) shows the 3" DP having a area of 7.065" while the dual 2.5" has a area of 9.813. A 3.5" DP would have an area of 9.616 more closely matching the rest of the system.

In my experience, usually you want an equal to or higher flowing(larger) DP that the rest of the system to help spool-up and flow. If the system get's slightly smaller after the down pipe it's less of an impact due to the exhaust cooling, thus contracting, and needing less volume of flow(albeit slightly.

Bigger is better post turbo IMO. How long do you think your DP will be before splitting to dual(I assume due to space limitations under the car)?

If you want to get real serious(more scientific) on piping sizes and want calculation just let me know.

P.S. 14 psi on race fuel will make a lot of power on the coyote, probably more than the stock rods can take.

[wbt]

not sure why you need to try and insult like that. I'll explain myself line-by-line.

I'll break it down:

The coyote is known for piston 8 damage on boosted engines, both supercharged and turbo.

...and then you state:

I see my error in wording in my original post that may be confusing. What I meant is it's the air distribution affecting A/F ratio, not the fueling itself.

So you are implying that #8 is getting more air than #5 or #1? #8 is farthest from the throttle body. The ring land failures are due to detonation. What causes that?

Not based on my years of experience with the coyote, at least not in the early days of tuning. Search the forums and find failures of just the piston, it's almost always #8(I did see a #6 recently on a blown F150 that was tuned by MPT and even the tuner commented on their surprise it wasn't the #8). Rod failure is not consistent in my findings, but usually seems to be 2-3 or 5-6.

Where is this data? I have seen #7 run leaner than #6 or #8. If you are going to make blanket claims and statements then post the data to correlate it. I am tired of the "hype" around #8 being a pragmatic issue when in fact it isn't. You see parts pushers trying to promote "head cooling mods" trying to exploit this unfounded issue. It pisses me off to no end to see these outfits taking advantage of the unknowing and unsuspecting. ANYONE posting claims that #8 is a problem need to post the backing data period.

I will tell you that based on my experience #8 is no different than #4 or #7, or #6, etc. and am sick an tired of #8 being posted as an excuse for poor tuning. That is the long and short of it period.

Exactly how many Coyote's have you tuned?

[wbt]

As I said earlier, I don't have experience with full custom turbo builds. I do have experience modifying factory turbo vehicles and here's my $0.02. A quick calculation(based on inside diameters) shows the 3" DP having a area of 7.065" while the dual 2.5" has a area of 9.813. A 3.5" DP would have an area of 9.616 more closely matching the rest of the system.

In my experience, usually you want an equal to or higher flowing(larger) DP that the rest of the system to help spool-up and flow. If the system get's slightly smaller after the down pipe it's less of an impact due to the exhaust cooling, thus contracting, and needing less volume of flow(albeit slightly.

Bigger is better post turbo IMO. How long do you think your DP will be before splitting to dual(I assume due to space limitations under the car)?

If you want to get real serious(more scientific) on piping sizes and want calculation just let me know.

P.S. 14 psi on race fuel will make a lot of power on the coyote, probably more than the stock rods can take.

Is this just a guess on your part or based on "experience"? What does "14psi." mean? Boost is just a measure of restriction. In your experience with FI on a Coyote where is the point of restriction? Does it matter if you are running a turbo, PD or centri blower?

Let's hear it.

[Eric@HPTuners]

You can set the number of 02 sensors to 1, and set the LTFT Adaptive Mapping so that both banks run off bank 1 O2 sensor.

[96gt4.6]

Thanks Eric!

I'm going to play with that a bit while the car is still running N/A and see how I like it. I'd still MUCH rather run a log manifold setup vs. a merge pipe setup on this build. I do still plan on running an aftermarket wide band and in-cab gauge as well, but it would sure be a heck of a lot easier if I could do a cross over and log setup.

I will report my experimentation results as soon as I get a moment to try it out!

[Kevin@JPCRacing]

Logs are terrible and I would avoid it if possible. The stock coyote valve springs are very sensitive to back pressure and you won't be getting near 14psi without issues. Running a header with merge style collector is an improvement over the stock header design on the Mustangs. We did a lot of testing on different headers, piping, turbo's etc.. If you aren't going to get too wild, the 02's will work pre-turbo, just monitor the AFR post turbo to verify it. Drivability, fuel trims etc.. is much better. Backpressure is the enemy and a well thought out exhaust/turbo combo will make all the difference.

However, I would like to build a custom setup with forward facing shorties with the shortest piping possible and a single 02 right after the turbo. I think it could work well if done right.

[96gt4.6]

Thank you for the advice Kevin, I appreciate it very much! I am still in the planning stages, so not entirely set on a system configuration just yet. My biggest concern on the merge setup will be my space constraint. It's going to be a little tough for me to get two 2.5" tubes up to where I want to mount this dude.....but it seems as if the merge is still the weapon of choice so some careful planning and kit layout is going to be in order.

I'm curious, anyone know at what boost level the stock springs become an issue? My goals are pretty low for this setup I think, anything over 600 rwhp and I'm good with that. Im assuming 6-8 psi will get the job done?

Thanks for the help guys!

[Chris5.0]

Its best to use a single sensor in the down pipe as to not have the sensors in the back pressure of the pre turbin exhaust.