Meth Injection for N/A

[Michael_D]

I've about convinced myself I need to try a water/meth injection system for my personal car.... Crappy premium fuel is 90 octane. I've been experimenting with octane boosters, and the engine/car really likes the extra spark I've been able to throw at it. I can't go back to my 90 octane spark tables now. But....I'm not too keen on the idea of running octane boosters on a consistant basis. I'm not convinced there are no adverse effects from using the stuff; like messing with O2 sensors, cats, plugs and I don't know what else.

So anyway, I've been studying up on these Meth injection set ups. Seems like they are primarily geared towards the boosted applications. MAP triggered. There are also N/A systems that run off the MAF output frequency, and pump pressure ramps up as Hz increases. I think I get it....

That's about as far I've got. I was going to just click the button and buy a system (leaning towards Alky Contol at the moment), but thought I might ask for some tips/advice before proceeded. That whole "I don't know what I don't know thing".

I'm not looking to use this stuff for WOT HP gains. I am only looking to use it to control, or reduce KR throughout the engine's operating range. Not JUST - WOT.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

[07GTS]

I'm not convinced there are no adverse effects from using the stuff; like messing with O2 sensors, cats, plugs and I don't know what else.

my usage of octane boosters lasted 1 tank full then i removed plugs and they had orange corrosion looking stuff on the tips so i havnt used any since

[barum]

Michael, as far as I know 50/50 methanol/water is used to lower intake air temp mainly with FI engines where the turbo/supercharger raises the intake air temp and air-to-air cooler is not able to lower it anywhere near the atmo temp.
Without FI your intake air temp could already (while at speed) be at a level where lowering it further (due to vaporizing meth) won't do any good. Have you tried increasing the advance in early spring/late autumn to see if there's any gain? If not, you won't see with meth injection either.
I've considered meth injection only for standing mile events to maintain requested advance regardless the outside temp or engine bay temp right from the launch. As the car gains speed, the intake air temp starts to drop but it wouldn't hurt if it did drop a bit faster.

[schpenxel]

I've about convinced myself I need to try a water/meth injection system for my personal car.... Crappy premium fuel is 90 octane. I've been experimenting with octane boosters, and the engine/car really likes the extra spark I've been able to throw at it. I can't go back to my 90 octane spark tables now. But....I'm not too keen on the idea of running octane boosters on a consistant basis. I'm not convinced there are no adverse effects from using the stuff; like messing with O2 sensors, cats, plugs and I don't know what else.

So anyway, I've been studying up on these Meth injection set ups. Seems like they are primarily geared towards the boosted applications. MAP triggered. There are also N/A systems that run off the MAF output frequency, and pump pressure ramps up as Hz increases. I think I get it....

That's about as far I've got. I was going to just click the button and buy a system (leaning towards Alky Contol at the moment), but thought I might ask for some tips/advice before proceeded. That whole "I don't know what I don't know thing".

I'm not looking to use this stuff for WOT HP gains. I am only looking to use it to control, or reduce KR throughout the engine's operating range. Not JUST - WOT.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

I've been running an alky control kit for over a year on my car, M15 nozzle with controller set to 10... cats have survived, plugs are fine, no issues whatsoever. I looked at the pistons the other day and they looked quite clean. Nearly 200K on the engine now.

So, my opinion is it'll be fine. For your purposes a small nozzle is all you should need. Use the MAF adapter to increase meth flow as airflow increases.

[Michael_D]

Michael, as far as I know 50/50 methanol/water is used to lower intake air temp mainly with FI engines where the turbo/supercharger raises the intake air temp and air-to-air cooler is not able to lower it anywhere near the atmo temp.
Without FI your intake air temp could already (while at speed) be at a level where lowering it further (due to vaporizing meth) won't do any good. Have you tried increasing the advance in early spring/late autumn to see if there's any gain? If not, you won't see with meth injection either.
I've considered meth injection only for standing mile events to maintain requested advance regardless the outside temp or engine bay temp right from the launch. As the car gains speed, the intake air temp starts to drop but it wouldn't hurt if it did drop a bit faster.

I have not tried changing spark tables like that. I just optomise the table the best I could with the fuel I have. That and a really aggresive PE engaugment. I don't get all the science behind the water vaporizaion and how it cools/removes heat from the combustion event, but it does aparently work well for N/A engines too.

When using the octane boosters, I can run the OEM spark table without getting much KR.

I've been running an alky control kit for over a year on my car, M15 nozzle with controller set to 10... cats have survived, plugs are fine, no issues whatsoever. I looked at the pistons the other day and they looked quite clean. Nearly 200K on the engine now.

So, my opinion is it'll be fine. For your purposes a small nozzle is all you should need. Use the MAF adapter to increase meth flow as airflow increases.

Thanks. Do you think a different VE/MAF calibration will be needed?

There are some interesting comments at Speed Talk about water/meth injection. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46633

[BigMike42]

No E85 stations near by? Flex fuel is super easy to add on Gen4 cars. I just did it and I run an E50 mix and it's awesome and smells awesome too.

[schpenxel]

Thanks. Do you think a different VE/MAF calibration will be needed?

There are some interesting comments at Speed Talk about water/meth injection. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46633

Just depends how much meth you spray.. for like an M10 nozzle with controller set pretty low you'd probably be fine as-is. I mean, it'll go richer than it is now.. but not by a huge amount

If you had a larger nozzle or controller turned up it'll probably end up richer than you'd want it, so you can change PE EQ ratio to lean things out a bit. Could also do it in MAF/VE if you want but messing with airflow also messes with spark so PE EQ ratio is probably the better way to do it

Flex fuel is a good idea though... with a sensor added it's a great option IMO

[BigMike42]

Good resource from a guy who did it on his N/A camaro

http://6l80etuning.com/methanol-injection

[Michael_D]

Only straight fuel where I live.

Thanks for the info and link.

[htggems]

Good resource from a guy who did it on his N/A camaro

http://6l80etuning.com/methanol-injection

I know this guy personally. He's a friend of mine. I have installed several kits on LS platforms. They are essentially set up just like a nitrous kit. WOT switch, arming switch and the basics from the Devils Own kit. He's absolutely right about NA kits on them. The meth DOES keep your combustion chambers squeaky clean but you DO have to run 100% meth or the water will extinguish the flame. One thing I've also done to help with your launches, install a 2 step so your WOT switch is engaged and spraying meth when you launch, it drops your IAT's quickly and puts you in a different spark table.

[BigMike42]

I know this guy personally. He's a friend of mine. I have installed several kits on LS platforms. They are essentially set up just like a nitrous kit. WOT switch, arming switch and the basics from the Devils Own kit. He's absolutely right about NA kits on them. The meth DOES keep your combustion chambers squeaky clean but you DO have to run 100% meth or the water will extinguish the flame. One thing I've also done to help with your launches, install a 2 step so your WOT switch is engaged and spraying meth when you launch, it drops your IAT's quickly and puts you in a different spark table.

Cool. Ya good guy, he has put up with my 9000 questions on his site with a lot of patience.

[SMEC]

I'll be watching this very closely.

Micheal D are you planing on a 50/50 or straight 100% meth?

[Michael_D]

I plan to use the washer reservoir, and I need to clean bugs off my windshield. I had planned to use mostly water. 80/20, or maybe 50/50. Definitely not 100% meth.

WOT switch does not help me. I need a progressive supply.

[schpenxel]

I still use straight meth to clean the windshield.. though it evaporates so fast it's not that great at it. Better than nothing I say

I still think using the MAF is your best bet.

[Michael_D]

Lots of bugs in my state.

I wish there was a dual channel controller that would reference both MAF and TPS. I think that would be perfect for NA. A friend of mine is an automation engineer and we have been bouncing ideas around. I can buy one, and he can write the code, but it would be expensive.

[schpenxel]

Basic controller could be made with Arduino and a motor controller for fairly cheap I'd bet. I've never measured frequency with one before but I'm pretty sure there are libraries out there that can do it, and I know it can read TPS voltages fine

[Michael_D]

I had to Google Arduino......

[schpenxel]

They're pretty slick little devices. Just atmega328 prototyping devices basically... but they are a lot easier to program than when using full blown Atmel studio.

[Michael_D]

Thank you. I will pass the info along to my friend. I'm just the dumb knuckle dragging mechanic at this party.