4L60e issues,...bout to take a 50cal and give er the whole 9 yards

[monte4ever]

Glad things are coming together for you. Hope everything checks out on your next test drive.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks bro, how you getting along with that TCC deal? Sure wish I could help u with that bud.

Man, I don't wanna be a premature ejack kinda fellar,....but, I backed up in the driveway this evening and goosed that 383 in 1st,....my line pressure gauge responded a little,....and I left two black streaks,...wife was/wasn't happy. 2 black steaks from a little goose????? Yeah man, I,.......on the other hand,.... was walkin' round like a 4 peckered rooster. Truck ain't never done that shit,....I knew that HT383e had more ass than it had showed previously,.....

Did HPTuners Support help with your TCC issue? Gotta say, Bill nailed my issue.

[Hutchinson]

Just took the truck for a test drive. Everything Bill/Support Crew did works correctly. The 1-2/2-3 shift solenoid on/off reports correctly per gear, according to Scanner results.

Combining the above test drive results with yesterday's "hand verification" of Solenoid operation, concludes verification of Bill/crew's changes.

Thanks again Bill and the rest of you guys.

I still have a PCS/line pressure issue. Even after pulling/cleaning and reinstalling boost valve, the gauge still barely moved when I hammer the throttle this morning,....
Combining this boost valve work with :
1. When I previously pulled the main wiring harness connector off the transmission,.....the gauge stayed the same (with zero current, it should have jumped to max 200+ psi)
2. And when I read the scan results, I see the PCS commanded and actual amps go up and down in response to throttle/engine load,...as well as, see the PCS cycle% go up and down in unison,...

Thus, I figure it's proof enough that my pressure issue definitely has to be something mechanical in transmission,....not anything the PCM is/isn't doing.

I'll finally be installing that new FLT Level V transmission over the next few days and report findings with testing new trans.

[monte4ever]

No, haven't gotten to the bottom of my issue yet. I asked Hptuners support to look and see if something got lost when I performed the swap but they said it couldn't be anything wrong with their segment swap software cause it's been use successfully plenty of time. Then they gave me the same bullsh!+ response that they first gave you. Can't put it all on them thou it just may be a mechanical issue. I'll find out in a few weeks.

[monte4ever]

I wanted to update you on my progress. After using two 12216125 files to do a segment swap it looks like the third one I found is a winner. The TC no longer goes in and out of lockup and is shifting through all gears beautifully. I just gotta work on when I want it to lock but so far the worst looks to be over................hopefully.

[Hutchinson]

That's great news Monte4ever,....good to see it was a tune segment issue and not mechanical (like mine is). I pulled my "new/old locally rebuilt/beefed up trans" (363 miles on it) and installed the new FLT Level 5,....got a few more hours work today to get it wrapped up. Can't say it went smooth as silk (4x4's are pain), but it wasn't too bad.
Gonna do the trans fill procedure today and should be putt-putting down the road this evening. Gonna put HPTuners and a line pressure gauge on it to do the first round of testing. I'm hoping everything goes well.

[monte4ever]

Good luck with the install and the final outcome.

[Hutchinson]

Well guys, finished installing the new FLT Level V transmission and went for the initial run,....line pressures show good on the gauge - sitting on 75psi in park/idle and jumps up to 86psi in D,3,2,1 at idle. Reverse is 120psi at idle,...and shifts into reverse really smooth (not like last trans - it would clunk/jerk the truck into reverse). And no leaks while sitting in driveway warming up/after first run.

Running down the road, the pressure gauge rises in unison with throttle/engine load-torque. I didn't wanna romp on it's maiden voyage thus, only gave it a little pedal to downshift from 4th to 3rd and got the gauge psi to jump up to ~145psi.
Pressures look good, thus, proves I definitely had an internal mechanical issue with the old/newly rebuilt 4L60e,....and further proves my PCM is good to go (as my Scanner amps decreased, the gauge pressure increased - in unison).

With that new Tru-Cool 40k trans cooler/-6AN lines (I took out the old small cooler/radiator/lines), it took over 20 minutes just to get the trans oil to 118 degrees at idle. During the maiden run, trans never got over 145 degrees,....wow,.... didn't expect that low,.....especially since it's hot as hell down here in Florida right now.

Only part I'm having trouble with now is reading the durn trans dipstick oil Level,.....hard to see the correct oil Level when you've recently put oil down the tube/and a bit cloudy day outside. I shut it down for awhile, let it cool to ambient temp, and will go back out this evening to check oil Level. I'm guessing the best way to check it is start out cold, start engine, cycle through all gears,...then check dipstick level at the cold mark,...and then continually check it as the trans warms up to max temp. Kinda hard to do with that new cooler,...it keeps temps so low at idle, thus won't be able to see the true "hot temp" level till after a run.

[monte4ever]

Congrat bro, glad you're almost ready to go enjoy it.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks man, I think your "good luck" (2posts up) helped. My luck ain't that great,....if it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't know what luck was.

I let the trans cool to ambient temp this afternoon, then checked the fluid level,....it was a good 3 inches up above the hot level (on the stick),.. which seems odd. I then started the engine and ran through all the gears (sitting still) and checked it again,.....the level was between the hot and cold marks. Wonder why the fluid is draining back into the pan and filling it up? It's leaking a little from my dipstick grommet seal (while it's sitting/cooling - due to this back-filling of pan). You'd think the level should be at/or below the "cold" mark,...with trans just sitting there awhile/cool. Right???

I let the trans warm up and continued to check fluid level. Once trans was warm, and I saw the level right at the top "hot" hash-mark, I went for a little longer run. I must admit, the clutch slip (while easy running up through the gears) seems a little soft,...meaning, it ain't got the "grip and go" I expected. Just seems soft to me, with a lot of clutch slip,....not bad, but, still soft.

I plan to drain bout 1/2 a quart tomorrow morning, check the fluid level again while hot, then make another run/scan trans parameters. Today, I noticed my TC slip (per the Scanner) seemed higher than expected. I will say, once the TCC locks in at ~53MPH (low throttle %),...man, it feels like a trans should feel,...solid and locked,....

Once I do my scan tomorrow, I'll look at my tune and see what can be done to "harden" that trans up,....,before I start scorching clutches. I'll report back tomorrow,....hope all my trials and tribulations helps some other guy in the future,...maybe he'll read this post and say, "man, I can check this or that and not make the same mistakes".

[Oleblu]

I would leave the fluid level as is. the stick will always read highest after a full cool down to ambient temp, BEFORE a cold start. I regularly run all our shops fleet vehicles at the highest point of the hot mark. This is with the vehicle at operating temp after a minimum travel distance of 13 miles out of town to our fleet shop. When temps are above 140* that's what I'd be considering hot. Better to be a half quart overfilled than a half quart under filled. Just my opinion.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks OleBlu, good advice, will do. My oil level is dead on the top line of the "hot" fill hash marked area,....I checked it last night after doing roughly an 8 mile putt-putt around the block (I'd let engine warm up for roughly 20 minutes before driving). I should be good to go,....I just gotta reset the dipstick housing in the grommet seal to stop the small leak from the grommet.

Admittedly, I didn't connect HPTuners Scanner during last night's run, thus, don't know what trans temp was but, can honestly say it should have been in the "hot" range (after warming engine for 20 minutes/driving 8 miles).

I have a transmission oil temperature gauge on my 3-pillar gauge set-up, but, haven't drilled and tapped the new transmission's deep aluminum oil pan yet,.... I plan on doing this at the 500 mile mark when I drop the pan to inspect for clutch material/any metal debris/change filter.

My concern now is how soft the clutches feel while under small load/feels like a lot of slip going on. I plan to make another putt-putt run today and will post Scanner log of the relevant transmission PID's,.....specifically looking at:
- Trans input shaft RPM
- Trans output shaft RPM
- TCC slip
- Along with all the other typical trans PID's

I'll report back later today,....maybe someone may learn a little something along the way (mainly me )

[Oleblu]

How much have you already bumped up shift pressures and shortened shift times, pulled how much tq mgmt. Is it shifting soft because the tune is close to factory? Are you still running a factory stall converter? sorry to bomb you with questions i'm just curious, i've been following your thread since the beginning. It just turns out im a manual trans kinda guy, I like me some clutch pedal lol.

[Hutchinson]

For people that install a new 4L60e/80e,....this is how I go through the initial fluid fill procedure/initial startup. Please feel free to comment/make corrections,....it works for me, but,......always room for improvement.

Let me preface,...my trans has a deep aluminum pan and holds an additional 3 quarts of fluid - totaling 14 quarts. A stock 4L60e (with stock pan) holds ~11 quarts,....not sure what a 4L80e holds (you can check/adjust as you see fit).
And if your transmission builder dyno test's your transmission before you get it (which FLT does), you'll have a little trans fluid left over in the trans/TC (all of it doesn't drain out),.....thus you'll have to gauge where your at after putting the first 7 quarts in (mentioned below) and during the second fill (you may want to hold off putting the full remaining quarts in and check your level after each quart).

Startup

- Fill 4x4 transfer case first (I drained my fluid, before removing from truck, to install new trans)
- Connect line pressure gauge to trans (route hose away from headers/exhaust,.....duh,...)
- Put 7 quarts in (1 quart will already be in Torque Converter - from when you initially installed it), check for leaks on trans.
- Start engine and run at idle for 10-20 seconds, then shut it down. Check for leaks on trans/cooler system.
- Put 5-1/2 more quarts in (13-1/2 total - to this point).
- Start engine again and idle only. Quickly check for any leaks on trans/cooler system.
- Bleed air from line pressure gauge - by simply disconnecting the quick-disconnect fitting at the gauge and reconnect it, you will see trans fluid squirt out a little at the gauge connection - might not have to do this, but, I do for assurance.
- Start scanning all trans points with HPTuners (set this up before you start putting fluid in).
- Cycle through all the gears a few times (wait 10 seconds in each position) while checking line gauge pressures - ensure line pressures are reading correctly for forward and reverse gears/per your application (shift kits/boost valves etc, will affect your base/stock pressures).
- Ensure 1-2/2-3 shift Solenoid on/off operations are correct for 1st and 2nd gear (as your shifting through each of the gears, sitting in your driveway, charging up the trans internal fluid circuits).
- Let transmission warm up to minimum ~145 degrees/checking for leaks and verifying your dipstick fluid level (several times while waiting).
- Cycle through all the gears again a few times, while waiting to reach minimum operating ~145 degrees "hot" temp (again, holding each for 10 seconds).
- While in Park, (once your nearing ~145 degrees) slap your gas pedal a couple times (no higher than 2000rpm) and verify your line pressure gauge needle jumps up in pressure, then drops back to "at idle" pressure.
- Check fluid level and top off to a hair below the full mark (remaining 1/2 quart).
- Cycle through the gears once more and check dipstick level/leaks one more time, and top off fluid to top of hot hash mark.
- It'll be hard to see your oil level on the dipstick, due to being new trans fluid and since you've just been pouring trans fluid down the dipstick tube,........but, keep checking it and assure yourself it's good.
- Go for an easy ride around block (4-6miles), constantly checking your line pressure gauge at different throttle positions/engine loads.
- Keep er' easy on this first drive,...nothing over ~30% Throttle. Try to keep it an easy ride and break trans in gently.
- Come back and (before shutting off engine) check fluid level again/check for leaks. Shut er' down and pop a cold beer,.... Relax and review HPTuners scan for shift solenoid on/off operation per gear, shaft input's and output's rpm (slip), gear shifts at correct speed/throttle position, TCC locks at correct speed/throttle position, trans fluid temps, etc, etc, etc.
- After trans has cooled back down to ambient temp (check for leaks), start engine again and cycle through all the gears (holding for 10 seconds in each position), then immediately check your trans fluid level,....it should be around the "cold" fill mark. Again, let engine/trans warm up per above,.....and check your dipstick fluids per the hot hash-marks. It'll be easier to see dipstick level this time because the residual fluid in the dipstick tube (from your initial fill) will have heated up/drained down into pan. Adjust as required.
- If everything's cool,.... go for a longer (gentle) ride,....always checking line pressure gauge/using HPTuners Scanner.
- Break in 500-700 miles before laying the wood to it,.....during this first 5-700 miles, "try" to keep your foot out of it,.... I'd shoot for staying under 50% Throttle to allow trans a good break-in,......then,......Hell's Bell's!!!

For shits and giggles, I write down (in my truck tune notebook) what my line pressures were during the initial startup/drive/subsequent drives,....may prove useful in the future. And, I keep the gauge on the trans for at least the first 8-10 drives for assurance comparisons. I'll reconnect gauge a couple weeks later to review pressures against initial runs to assure all's good. I also jot down some of the parameters from HPTuners Scanner results for later comparison.

As of this post date, 20JUL17, HPTuners Support has not updated the software to show correct 1-2/2-3 shift Solenoid operation (please see previous posts above),....thus your 1-2/2-3 (3-4 as it's currently called) will be backwards. It's correct in my BETA version, but won't be correct in the regular software version until HPTuners issues their next software update.


Hope this helps someone.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks OleBlu, yeah man,.....I like me some clutch pedal too,....believe me, I definitely looked into swapping this over to a manual trans,....wish I had now.

My other truck is a standard cab 83' Ford F-350 4x4, 460 4barrel with a granny 4 speed in it,....durn thing's like driving a race car. If you wanna see something funny,....pull the front bumper up to a big oak tree,...put it in 4Low/1st gear and let off the clutch,,....then get out of the truck,......it'll sit there and dig four holes up to the axle housings,.....man, I like that truck,.....it's cherry and a slap-ass beast.

I've left shift times and pressures at stock settings for now,...and only reduced torque management by half.
Still running a stock stall speed,.,.TC is new, with an Allison hub and weld reinforced (from Precision of New Hampton). My engine is a low rpm torque grunter,....so, I'd think a stock stall speed is ok. I rarely take it over 35-4000 rpm because my torque curve is fairly flat from 2100rpm and tops out at 4100 (IIRC).
My engine tune isn't factory (dyno tuned HT383e/0411 PCM) but, the trans tune is still close to being stock,.....I didn't want to adjust anything in the trans tune till I could see what the new trans would do/how she'd act,.....
My suspicions are - clutches feel like they're slipping a little while running up through the rpm's. The actual shift to the next gear feels ok (shift times show on Scanner as .2 or .3 seconds),...it just ain't got the grab it and growl "feel" in the clutches that I'd expect,....and I surely don't wanna start slow roasting clutches. Any ideas on where to look first? I was kinda thinking pressure tables,....but,....heard a lot,.... "man, you don't wanna start messing with that table".
I'm fairly certain it has something to do with my tune,....and not the trans itself.

I'll post my tune and another scan this afternoon after my next run,....if y'all can please take a look and see whatcha think.

[Oleblu]

Honestly ide keep the shift times around .275-.300. Then adjust shift pressures or shift pressure modifiers. If you have no modifiers to adjust just start bumping pressure's up 10% the first wack and increments of 5 or 3% from the there on out adjusting pressures is normal procedure throwing 25% or more into a shift pressure table is the wrong way to do it. Don't be afraid to try things but do use caution while trying new adjustments. Remember an auto transmission is nothing more than a glorified hydraulic pump. If it's built right it will happily take more pressure.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks OleBlu,...apologies,...it wasn't the pressure tables (I mentioned above) that I'd heard "man, you don't wanna start messing with that table",.....it was the Force Motor Current table I was thinking of,.....

Yes Sir, I have my shift times set between .200 (higher gear/torque) and .381 (lower gear/torque). I'm not familiar with the shift pressure and modifier tables (which I have both). But, I presumed (probably wrongly) those tables were for the actual pressure the trans would use to make each gear shift happen? And not the "holding power" of the clutches during an acceleration/rpm range,..while going up to the next shift/gear? Again, please forgive me man, I'm new to tuning and simply looking to learn from all y'all's excellent experience. I wholeheartedly bow to y'all's expertise.

Again, please forgive my ignorance/newbieness,....my worry appears to be clutches slipping (a little) while going up through each gear's rpm range (no continuous lock to go while in each gear),...would it seem the Force Motor Table would be the one to adjust (even though I've heard this could be a demon table)???
Does it make sense that, if I lowered my amperage settings 10% across the whole table (or at least the lower TPS cells), it would provide more line pressure to hold the clutches tighter while I'm accelerating up through that gear (thus, decreasing suspected clutch slip while accelerating)?

Does that make sense? Or, am I way off base (which wouldn't surprise me that I'd be way out in the stars somewhere),....

[Hutchinson]

5.1 12MAY17 JDT IFR VE MAF mods with Bluecats 4.3 version changes.hpt19JULY17 FLT trans first run.hpl

I've attached a copy of my tune with a scan from yesterday's first run with the new FLT transmission. The one area of concern (could be a concern without merit) I have is the input and output shaft rpm's along with TCC slip,...all relating back to engine rpm,....I can't tell if I have clutch slip or not because I truly don't know how they relate to each other (don't have a clear picture in my head). Can someone take a look and explain what these represent, how they interact, and if I have clutch slippage while accelerating up through a each gear?

I can say, once I hit TCC lock (which isn't on the attached scan) it feels like a trans should,...goodentight.

[Oleblu]

You are correct in your logic of shift pressures. And I rarely change force motor currents. I would assume your logic is somewhat correct for the force motor table. in the end of the day the mechanical limits will be what keeps you from gaining more holding pressure. I'm no expert by any means, so it would be nice to have confirmation of this from someone with some real experience. As stated earlier I'm more of a manual transmission kinda guy. I would hate to lead you the wrong way.

[monte4ever]

My two cents is to definitely bump up the trans pressures that way it will firm up those shifts and I always fill my transmissions to the lower mark on the dipstick while the trans is hot.

EDIT: Under the "Shift Pressure Performance Table" try bumping the whole to 90psi.
Under the "Normal Table" change that to 90 psi from 240 to 640 then "Interpolate between Horizontal Lines" from 100 to 240. You should definitely feel a difference. If its too hard while cruising play with the Normal table. I got mine setup close to the above and it shifts nice and firm but not to hard however, I have a 3600 stall. I would also zero out the shift time table and everything on the Torque Management screen (tables).