Can timing

[kenandjenn4551]

Ok, LSA is 115 with +3 adv ground into the cam.
So with 7 (14) deg limiter, max advance puts you at 112ICL
Max retard will be 126ICL , so as you said the mid point is 119 which is probably as far as you ever want to retard this cam.
Now we know where the cam is, it is a matter of putting it where we want it.
Assuming it is a 6.4, I'd start by trying 134 - 132 (0-2degs retard) in the exhaust CL table at low rpm and retard it to 129 - 128 (5-6degs retard) up top.
Do both PT and WOT cam tables or it will be a dog at P/T.

My 222/230 112.5 likes to run with full advance. I do back it down some slightly after peak torque.

Anyone see any issues here? I adjust the intake as well, as the factory does so and I assume it affects airflow calculations.

I also leave the intake and exhaust lockpin setting at 120*

[JWM_Jankowitz]

OK, The Hemi VVT's work backwards from full advance.
Full advance is the default/idle position and they retard from there.
So the stock phaser can retard 14 cam degrees (28 crank degrees) and if you fit a 7deg limiter, it then limits retard to 7 cam degrees(14 crank degrees).
Now with the stock cam we know the start position of the cam as the cam is ground with 14 degs advance and has a LSA (6.4L) of 120.5.
So at full advance it has an ICL of 106.5 and exhaust 134.5

Now with an aftermarket cam the LSA and cam advance are most likely now different.
I cant remember the 270 off the top of my head but do know the 274 which is probably similiar.
It has LSA of 116 and is ground with +3 Adv.
So installed and at full advance this cam will have an ICL of 113....but the PCM will still use the numbers 134.5 ex and 106.5 int as it doesnt know the cam has changed.

This cam will like to be run somewhere from 113ish to 119ish ICL so we will have to tell the PCM to keep it nearly fully advanced and retard up to max of maybe 6 degs.
So the exhaust cam table numbers( as these are the numbers that actually control the cam not the intake numbers) will run from 134 (full adv) to 128 (6 degs retard) approx.
This would make the intake go from 113 CL to 119 CL Actual.
The exhaust numbers would be 119 to 113 CL Actual.

So you can see that when swapping cams the numbers can get a little complicated.
Hope I have explained it clearly...if not, ask away..

Hi,

Also keen to get a bit more insight in what I need to do for my cam setup as far as the HPtuner tables...
I also have a custom grind comp-cam with limiter in my 392

Attached what I see right now in my config + a few more pics on cam data. Can anyone of you help a rookie out?

MinMax.pngTables.pngCompCam 1.jpgCompCam 2.jpg
2013 Jeep JKU8 392 ECU (MJ) + TCM (MJ) WIP7.hpt

Thanks,

Mouritz

[Hemituna]

Start with Ken&Jenns numbers' for WOT tables and make P/T same also.

Hi,

Also keen to get a bit more insight in what I need to do for my cam setup as far as the HPtuner tables...
I also have a custom grind comp-cam with limiter in my 392

Attached what I see right now in my config + a few more pics on cam data. Can anyone of you help a rookie out?

MinMax.pngTables.pngCompCam 1.jpgCompCam 2.jpg
2013 Jeep JKU8 392 ECU (MJ) + TCM (MJ) WIP7.hpt

Thanks,

Mouritz

[JWM_Jankowitz]

Start with Ken&Jenns numbers' for WOT tables and make P/T same also.

Hi Hemituna,

My numbers is already fairly close to K&Js, but I wanted to know if there is anything substantial that I might be missing in my tune.
As always appreciate any kind of advice I can get from you. Things that is obviously wrong or questionable.

If you have 5 mins, can you have a quick look at the above work in progress (WIP) tune file.


Best regards,
Mouritz Jankowitz

[JWM_Jankowitz]

OK, The Hemi VVT's work backwards from full advance.
Full advance is the default/idle position and they retard from there.
So the stock phaser can retard 14 cam degrees (28 crank degrees) and if you fit a 7deg limiter, it then limits retard to 7 cam degrees(14 crank degrees).
Now with the stock cam we know the start position of the cam as the cam is ground with 14 degs advance and has a LSA (6.4L) of 120.5.
So at full advance it has an ICL of 106.5 and exhaust 134.5

Now with an aftermarket cam the LSA and cam advance are most likely now different.
I cant remember the 270 off the top of my head but do know the 274 which is probably similiar.
It has LSA of 116 and is ground with +3 Adv.
So installed and at full advance this cam will have an ICL of 113....but the PCM will still use the numbers 134.5 ex and 106.5 int as it doesnt know the cam has changed.

This cam will like to be run somewhere from 113ish to 119ish ICL so we will have to tell the PCM to keep it nearly fully advanced and retard up to max of maybe 6 degs.
So the exhaust cam table numbers( as these are the numbers that actually control the cam not the intake numbers) will run from 134 (full adv) to 128 (6 degs retard) approx.
This would make the intake go from 113 CL to 119 CL Actual.
The exhaust numbers would be 119 to 113 CL Actual.

So you can see that when swapping cams the numbers can get a little complicated.
Hope I have explained it clearly...if not, ask away..

Hi,

I have applied the same approach to my 2012 Dodge RAM 1500 with a 5.7 Hemi. The truck runs great until I hit around 70 mph and then it feels as if it is stuttering. At 1st I thought it was torque control kicking-in, but as far as I recall I have most of that disabled. Can anyone give me more hints? Tune attached... 2012 Dodge Ram 1500 Laramie 5.7 ECU (MJ) + TCM (MJ) WIP3.hpt

Thanks Mouritz

[JWM_Jankowitz]

Start with Ken&Jenns numbers' for WOT tables and make P/T same also.

Hi, as far as matching WOT & PT cam tables... Do I match the WOT table deg from 512 rpm through 6464 with the same rpm range in PT (I assume Normal Desired Angle) table?

There seems to happen a lot between the 512 through 3648 rpm range in the normal desired angle table.

Also how does one account for a different LSA or advance on the cam grind.

I'm so confused with all of of this and have a ton of questions...

Attached a calculator with everything I'm trying to figure out here...

JEEP Variable Cam CGrind.xlsx

2013 Jeep JK Sahara 6.4 ECU (MJ) + TCM (MJ) WIP7.hpt

Any help / clarity will be much appreciated.


Thanks,

Mouritz

[Plum7o2]

The dodge system is still a push rod, cam under head setup with ONE camshaft with both intake and exhaust "cams" on one stick, you cant move the intake side without the exhaust side moving too, its one hunk of metal. So if you tell the ECU advance the intake side 14 degrees, the exhaust side gets RETARDED by the same exact amount.


^^
300c is correct in that there is 1 cam...both intake and exhaust lobes are attached to this 1 stick...however if you advance the intake 5 degs, logic dictates that the exhaust advances 5 degs too.
The confusing part is that the cam lobe centreline NUMBERS which go in opposite directions. This is because of the way this is measured relative to TDC.

Take for example a stock 6.4L or Hellcat cam. Both have 120.5 LSA. When at 120.5 ICL, this cam is "straight up"...neither advanced or retarded, both lobes are at 120.5 CL
Advance the cam 5 degrees, and Intake CL is now 115.5 degs, while exhaust is 125.5 degs...seems strange and takes a while to get your head around it.
That is why at idle when it is fully advanced it will show exhaust 134ish (120.5 +14) and intake 106.5ish (120.5 -14)

Try playing around with a cam calculator and you will see what I mean.
When you change cams, change LSA, and change the advance ground into the cam all these numbers change.
BUT, the PCM doesnt know that a change has been made.

So you need to work out where the cam lobes actually ARE while being forced to retain the PCM's original number system.
Just a matter of working backwards really...but you need to understand where both lobes are to get a good result.

Advance down low and retard up top are kinda the principles, but it is not always as easy as that tho.
Many other factors come into play like boost level, LSA and where you really want the intake/exhaust lobe to be.
If you look at hellcat/demon tables, the cam is most retarded at low rpm/high load and actually is slightly more advanced as rpm increases etc...

Is it okay to bring this back up? I am stuck with this backwards math lol. ANY assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[Plum7o2]

# # Intake Exhaust
Duration .050 223 232
Lobe Lift .353 .353
Valve Lift@ 1.65 .582 .582
Lobe separation 115
Intake Centerline 112

[16GoManGoHC]

OK, The Hemi VVT's work backwards from full advance.
Full advance is the default/idle position and they retard from there.
So the stock phaser can retard 14 cam degrees (28 crank degrees) and if you fit a 7deg limiter, it then limits retard to 7 cam degrees(14 crank degrees).
Now with the stock cam we know the start position of the cam as the cam is ground with 14 degs advance and has a LSA (6.4L) of 120.5.
So at full advance it has an ICL of 106.5 and exhaust 134.5

Now with an aftermarket cam the LSA and cam advance are most likely now different.
I cant remember the 270 off the top of my head but do know the 274 which is probably similiar.
It has LSA of 116 and is ground with +3 Adv.
So installed and at full advance this cam will have an ICL of 113....but the PCM will still use the numbers 134.5 ex and 106.5 int as it doesnt know the cam has changed.

This cam will like to be run somewhere from 113ish to 119ish ICL so we will have to tell the PCM to keep it nearly fully advanced and retard up to max of maybe 6 degs.
So the exhaust cam table numbers( as these are the numbers that actually control the cam not the intake numbers) will run from 134 (full adv) to 128 (6 degs retard) approx.
This would make the intake go from 113 CL to 119 CL Actual.
The exhaust numbers would be 119 to 113 CL Actual.

So you can see that when swapping cams the numbers can get a little complicated.
Hope I have explained it clearly...if not, ask away..

So, basically with a stock limiter 120 degrees displayed as exhaust cam timing is centerline cam straight up and from 120 to 134 is advancing the cam and 120 to 106 is retarding the cam? 134 being fully advanced and 106 being fully retarded? That makes it easy if so, GREAT STUFF 👍

[Hemituna]

So, basically with a stock 6.4 or 6.2 cam at 120.5 degrees displayed as exhaust cam timing is centerline cam straight up and from 120.5 to 134 is advancing the cam and 120.5 to 106 is retarding the cam? 134 being fully advanced and 106 being fully retarded? That makes it easy if so, GREAT STUFF ��

Corrected a little but you've got the idea for the stock cam.

[james1595]

so ive got a question. ive got a 5.7 with an hpt+ cam specs are
duration:214-224
lift:590-585
ICL:106
LSA:112

if i have everything correct(which is probably no) the 5.7s max exhaust advance is 125*, and my cam would be sitting at 118* correct? so my cam would have 7* more exhaust advance?
now what would be a good starting point for the vvt tuning? from what ive read from other post by you, i dont want to go full retard. is it similar to timing where more isnt always better? would i damage something if i maxed out the retard of the cam, or would i just lose power? any help would be appreciated, all this vvt stuff has mind all twisted

[14HemiRam]

I have the same cam hpt+ and I have it set at
112* max phase
120* exhaust lock-pin
133* exhaust max
112* exhaust min
I'm using the 7* comp limiter as well. I think it's set correct my original dyno tune I had right after the cam was setup this way. I've been learning ever since I've got this cam been trying to fine tune it but for the longest I disabled vvt but now I just turned it back on so that's why I'm digging through the forums looking at cam adjustments for vvt, so hoping to learn about this as well to see if it's correctly setup. I do beleive that the limiter will keep you from advancing any further or retarding any further to allow harm. If any of that helps.

[james1595]

I have the same cam hpt+ and I have it set at
112* max phase
120* exhaust lock-pin
133* exhaust max
112* exhaust min
I'm using the 7* comp limiter as well. I think it's set correct my original dyno tune I had right after the cam was setup this way. I've been learning ever since I've got this cam been trying to fine tune it but for the longest I disabled vvt but now I just turned it back on so that's why I'm digging through the forums looking at cam adjustments for vvt, so hoping to learn about this as well to see if it's correctly setup. I do beleive that the limiter will keep you from advancing any further or retarding any further to allow harm. If any of that helps.

ive done a bit more research and playing around with this cam and the vvt tuning, and for the 5.7, 125 is the max the computer retards the cam. so i have it set at max(125 degrees) till around 4k rpm, then goes down to 120 degrees at around 6k rpm. also i have all my tables the same, part throttle, lockpin, and wot, might hurt gas milage but it makes the car much more responsive and sounds more aggressive

[FLandy]

ive done a bit more research and playing around with this cam and the vvt tuning, and for the 5.7, 125 is the max the computer retards the cam. so i have it set at max(125 degrees) till around 4k rpm, then goes down to 120 degrees at around 6k rpm. also i have all my tables the same, part throttle, lockpin, and wot, might hurt gas milage but it makes the car much more responsive and sounds more aggressive

Don't you mean, "for the 5.7, 125 is the max the computer ADVANCES the cam"?

I'm using a much milder cam than the rest of you, and am running 125 to 3800 rpm and then retarding to 117 at 5800. I came up with these numbers by using an engine simulation program (Engine Analyzer 3.2) which I got about 20 years ago. I put in the engine specs as close as I could and ran it fully advanced, and then successively 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 degrees retarded. Not as good as a real dyno, but probably not too far off.

I also set all the vvt tables the same.

[james1595]

Don't you mean, "for the 5.7, 125 is the max the computer ADVANCES the cam"?

I'm using a much milder cam than the rest of you, and am running 125 to 3800 rpm and then retarding to 117 at 5800. I came up with these numbers by using an engine simulation program (Engine Analyzer 3.2) which I got about 20 years ago. I put in the engine specs as close as I could and ran it fully advanced, and then successively 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 degrees retarded. Not as good as a real dyno, but probably not too far off.

I also set all the vvt tables the same.

Sorry, the cam is retarding, but the exhaust side is advanceing if that makes sense

[moparmajba]

I recently put a Mopar Stage 2 cam (this is a comp grind and comes with a comp limiter, specs below) in an NGC4 Eagle. I think I've ironed out a lot of the bugs and VE tables, but now I'm a bit curious on cam timing. I have VVT disabled in order to fully disable the NN.

Logs showed that in this state, the cam was frozen at 120*. Does this make sense? Before I turned off VVT, the cam seemed to center at 125*, but only retarded a degree or two while running or under WOT, high RPM. I was surprised to see it not move much, unless it hit the limiter.

With VVT disabled, is there any chance of tuning the cam, or can I pin it at a specific point (full Intake advance, full intake retard, somewhere in the middle)? The engine is is in a road racer, so top end is actually important to me, but I do spend a sizable amount of time in the 3-5k range.
Mopar Performance Cam
Part Number
@ 0.050" 222/230 (I/E)
@ 0.006" 270/282 (I/E)
Lobe Lift 0.373"/0.369" (I/E)
Valve Lift 0.615"/0.609" (I/E)
LSA (Crankshaft Degrees) 115

[james1595]

I recently put a Mopar Stage 2 cam (this is a comp grind and comes with a comp limiter, specs below) in an NGC4 Eagle. I think I've ironed out a lot of the bugs and VE tables, but now I'm a bit curious on cam timing. I have VVT disabled in order to fully disable the NN.

Logs showed that in this state, the cam was frozen at 120*. Does this make sense? Before I turned off VVT, the cam seemed to center at 125*, but only retarded a degree or two while running or under WOT, high RPM. I was surprised to see it not move much, unless it hit the limiter.

With VVT disabled, is there any chance of tuning the cam, or can I pin it at a specific point (full Intake advance, full intake retard, somewhere in the middle)? The engine is is in a road racer, so top end is actually important to me, but I do spend a sizable amount of time in the 3-5k range.
Mopar Performance Cam
Part Number
@ 0.050" 222/230 (I/E)
@ 0.006" 270/282 (I/E)
Lobe Lift 0.373"/0.369" (I/E)
Valve Lift 0.615"/0.609" (I/E)
LSA (Crankshaft Degrees) 115

I bieleve when you lock it, it defaults yo lock pin, which if i remember correctly is 120?, so you can adjust where that is, but if you have vvt diabled, you cant tune for vvt. I woupd suggest enabling vvt, and tune the tables ti your preference. Like for mine, its at 125 till about 3k, then tapers down to 120 at abiut 6k, and it seems to respond well

[moparmajba]

Thanks that's what I figured. Problem is, I'm pretty sure on the NGC4 (pre-2012, I believe) you have to disable VVT to fully disable the ANN and be able to tune the VE tables (else it goes into Chrysler black box land). This is per some of my experience on this car and I believe one of 300C's posts. In fact, when I first went in to HP tuners, it had the NN shown as disabled when it clearly wasn't.

Sounds like I might play with lockpin, or at least have a bit of compromise between the two. Dodge makes nothing easy.

[james1595]

I dont know about the older pcms, ive got a 19, and ill tell you, its a pain no matter the year. But that does suck

[whaygood]

Good read. Thanks for that.