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Thread: Transient Fueling or Injector Timing Issues, Please Help

  1. #1
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    Transient Fueling or Injector Timing Issues, Please Help

    The customer brought us a 67 Firebird that he swapped with the l94 and 6l80e out of a 2012 Escalade complaining about a "dead spot" in the throttle. After some initial inspecting, a combination of the Holley lo-ram intake manifold he installed and a shorted MAF signal circuit within the ECM has caused the fueling in certain areas to be really lean (>20:1 AFR), especially on throttle transitions. Because of the MAF signal circuit failure within the ECM, and the lack of availability of replacement ECMs, I'm trying to tune the car to just run in speed density. Also, the Holley intake manifold points the injector towards the center of the engine, rather than the top of the intake valve like the stock manifold would, which I suspect is causing a bunch of the fuel being injected to pool up in the intake runner and just dribble down into the cylinder once the valve opens. Despite having taken The Tuning School's course on GM gen 3 and gen 4 tuning and being pretty familiar with the tuning process, they don't cover anything about aftermarket intake manifold upgrades, transient fueling, or injector timing in the course, and this is the first aftermarket intake manifold that has given me any major problems. I've messed with the injection boundary table [13336], normal ECT [13337], impact factor gas [13624], impact factor gain [12284], evap factor gas [13627], and evap factor gain [13630] to little avail, in addition to trying to clean up my VVE table somewhat, and trying to account for the lean spots. I thought I was making some progress until I got to the point where I was flooding the engine on startup, despite not touching a single table directly related to cranking.

    I really just need some pointing in the right direction, as I feel like I'm flying blind and adjusting things little by little randomly. Everything about the engine is stock except for the intake manifold and a set of long tube headers. DoD is disabled and cam timing is at 0.0 degrees until over 4000rpm, but all of my issue is in low rpm throttle tip in. I can watch on my wideband that any throttle delta sends the AFRs super lean, despite my injector duty cycle closely following my throttle position.

    I've got the original tune that I pulled from the car, with just the MAF disabled, and then my latest tune that successfully made the car run, where my throttle response was a bit better, but floods the motor on startup (or possibly on shutoff, I can't say for sure). Because of the way the ignition switch is wired, I can't log cranking since the OBD2 port loses power in the run position of the key, so unfortunately I don't have that information.

    Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
    67firebird_62_6l80e_rev2.hpt
    67firebird_62_6l80e_rev16_refresh.hpt
    67firebird_62_6l80e_rev19.hpt
    67firebird_62_6l80e_drive1.hpl
    67firebird_62_6l80e_idleandrevs.hpl
    67firebird_62_6l80e_idleandrevs11.hpl
    Last edited by hachir0ku; 09-14-2023 at 12:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    First off, it's not in speed density. This is in speed density.

    Good luck with it.

    Edit: Most of your symptoms were most likely caused by having it setup the way you did. The PCM just doesn't know what to do. You're trying to fail the MAF but the PCM can't or won't revert to the VVE because there's no P0103 set. It ends up not running off either table MAF or VVE.
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    Last edited by edcmat-l1; 09-14-2023 at 02:43 PM.

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    Interesting, I thought just setting the MAF frequency fail high to 0hz was the only thing that caused the ECM to enter SD, as that's all the Tuning School's course instructs you to do. So disabling the MAF related DTCs prevents the ECM from entering SD, even if the values that you changed in the updated file are set as you had them?

    That revision 19 file floods the motor on startup no matter what I do so I just applied your changes to a few tune revisions back. After doing so, I had a lot of trouble getting the car to start and stay running, it would just die after about 10 seconds and wouldn't respond to any throttle input. It seemed that since it was actually in SD mode it was super lean, so I added 5% fuel to the whole VVE map and managed to get it started after a bit of fiddling. You'll see in the log that my transient issue is still definitely there, but it seemed marginally better once the engine warmed up and my LTFTs got things sorted out a little bit. The strange thing is, all of my fuel trims are severely negative, despite all of my readings from my wideband being leaner than stoich pretty much everywhere. Why would it be trying to pull fuel out when it isn't even matching the commanded EQ ratio? I've read in other threads that the injector timing can cause this somehow but I don't really understand the physics behind that.

    Here's my most current tune and log.
    67firebird_62_6l80e_NEW_SDenabled.hpt67firebird_62_6l80e_sdactuallyenabled.hpl

  4. #4
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    No Error Reported means Do Not Run The Test. And if it does not run the test it can't flag the MAF as 'Fail' and if that doesn't happen it is not in speed density.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner edcmat-l1's Avatar
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    Forget about your wideband when tuning part throttle. Might as well unplug it so it's not distracting you.

    You need to dial in the VVE using your trims. I'd turn off the long terms and just use the short terms to rough it in.

    The O2 sensor patterns look pretty strange not sure if it's that crappy intake or what. I can't stand those things. Worst "performance" part ever.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcmat-l1 View Post
    The O2 sensor patterns look pretty strange not sure if it's that crappy intake or what. I can't stand those things. Worst "performance" part ever.
    What is with the fuel injector ports? LS9 injectors (12598646) should help. The spray pattern is biased. 20 degrees if I remember right.

    Update the intake manifold volume at Airflow>Speed Density. I estimate 12400 cubic cm.

    Super short runners lol.

  7. #7
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    LSA injector with .012" pin gage.

    12598646.jpg

  8. #8
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    Yeah that'd be perfect. Just have to figure out how to keep them indexed.

    Matches great. Off maybe a couple degrees. Remember basic trig.

    lsa on holley.png
    Last edited by SiriusC1024; 09-15-2023 at 06:08 AM.