Max TorqueOriginally Posted by RWTD
Max Torque - Max to 640
Tip In Torque - Max out
Trans Input Max - Max out
Trans Output Max - Max out
Front Axle Max - Max out
Front Propshaft Max - Max out
Rear Axle Max - Max out
Rear Propshaft Max - Max out
So should all of these be set at 640?
MAX torque can be set to 640, the rest can be set to whatever the max number allowed is. In previous vehicles I've left the rest stock excluding the max torque value and not noticed any difference.
2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.
If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.
Thanks 5FDP
Why are there two maps for the same thing,
Spark Retard
vs. Torque Reduction - Zero out
Torque Loss %
vs. Spark Retard - Zero out
Isn't it the same question? Which one does the ECU 'use' to spark retard for a shift?
Thanks, So if I want to pull all my timing and even go negative, I would do it in the first table (spark retard vs torque red).
And next, if I wanted to keep my high airmass calculation, I would set the second table to 0% so even with negative timing and no torque coming out of the engine it will still shift hard and provide all the normal amount of fuel? Does torque management interfere with fueling? Like if I put 100% torque loss, will it pull all the fuel? I assume the purpose of this calculation is to provide trans shifting torque output changes but I am worried its also affecting VE airmass stuff
yes, but the final minimum spark table with determine to what actual value TM can reduce timing too. that's the final value allowed by TM as a limiter.
if you want TM I would recommend leaving the second table populated with stock values.
LS1 will not pull fuel for TM... gen 4 can. gen 3 is spark only.
I have once had issues when I set the second table to 100%. when the A/C cut in it would rev really high because it didn't know the correct spark addition for the extra torque the A/C was requesting. I set back to factory and issue fixed. I only ever edit the top table to zero if I want no TM at all or leave it with factory values if I do.
making the shifts firmer should be done with shift time, pressure and torque reduction in trans section. not in engine TM
thank you for all the insight, you've certainly shown me a great deal already.
What I was suggesting is that the second graph is pulling shift pressure because it reports less torque production. Or that was my question, will it pull shift pressure. I didn't want to use it for that I just don't know if it does it. You said yourself it doesn't touch fuel. So I don't know what else it doesn't touch.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 05-07-2018 at 12:45 AM.
Hptuners warns against adjusting max torque because of it running lean and lower fuel pressure
I think that only applies to certain vehicles with voltage control over the fuel pump. If youve installed an aftermarket pump and wired it yourself then the ECU has no control over fuel pressure or pump output.
I'd also like to answer my own question now that I've sufficient experience with these tables dialing them precisely.
Spark retard table is how much timing to pull for a specific percentage of torque reduction, like it says. This table can be used to generate deep spikes of TM which clamp at values given by the minimum spark table.
In my case, by raising these numbers and strategically raising low percentage torque management for high timing reductions, you can command very little torque management and get deep powerful negative spikes of timing reduction for a shift to calm it down as needed when using modified volume shift orifices (drilled separator plates) and higher than stock pressures commanded or boost valve related.
Spark retard table was useful 2 ways:
1. to help the transmission shift firmly but gently even with larger gear fluid orifices drilled at part throttle, I could get a little tire chirp at part throttle or remove the chirp with sufficient timing reduction while maintaining a snappy firm shift, and it also makes the vehicle feel like the transmission is not being abused, clutches don't slip much but the trans doesn't jerk the car either. My favorite feature.
2. To remove some tire spin at WOT. Some. Some tire spin. With normal tires 500-600rwhp @ 3000lbs I needed to drop 1st gear shift point to like 4800rpm shift and lift from the throttle a little to procure a spin-less shift even with torque reduction from my 4l80e which is a momentum monster.
Torque Loss % vs spark retard
This table can ruin your transmission if you are not careful. The stock settings are kind of awful for a high output turbo car when using torque management.
This table will reduce shift pressure based on predicted torque after whatever is removed. For example in the column 12.5degrees if the number in the cell is '10' then it will chop 10% of predicted torque off when torque management pulls 12.5 degrees of timing on the shift. It can result with low shift pressure. I reduced these numbers greatly, around 2 or 3% for most shifting so the force motor current does not rise on the shift much or at all especially near wide open throttle.
To watch this tables influence carefully and monitor your transmission behavior you will need to log 'actual force motor current' channel carefully with a high enough polling interval to catch nuance behavior. What you want to see on a shift is a low actual force motor current near 0.100Amps or 100mA or 80mA or 50mA something like that. If you see during a shift the force motor jumps up from ~80mA to like 150mA or higher then it is reducing the transmission pressure and that can lead to a slipping transmission and ruined clutches. A transmission mechanical pressure gauge can help you dial in the necessary exact shift pressure for the transmission as the force motor only controls EPC (pressure solenoid) current which is basically a bypass solenoid directing fluid (or bypassing fluid) from reaching the boost valve and pressure valve which ultimately demand pressure from the pump, so items like upgrade boost valves and aftermarket or rebuilt pump parts and modifications to the pump like lube to line all control the exact pressure together, there is no exact specific mA number which works for all transmissions other than we know commanding a low mA Of current is going to command the highest pressure possible that the transmission can currently make, which is best for performance applications as it will reduce slippage the most in theory provided the volume rate filling of clutch apply area is sufficient. In other words even if we command a very high pressure it does not guarantee the fluid can enter the clutch apply area fast enough to bring on the clutch pack fast enough for some high output engines, the rate of fluid filling is controlled by accumulation, fluid viscosity, and restricted orifices in the valve body which must be modified generally we enlarge the shift orifice in the separator plate for example to flow more volume/time to the clutch apply area.
Adaption and shift times I do not recommend for modified units and aftermarket converters. My converter for example fools the ECU as the rpm drop on 3-4 shift is not sufficient, it displays incorrect time of latest shift, which makes adaption useless and would lead to incorrect adaption pressure adjustment. I turn off adaption and disregard shift time, it has no use for my unit, my combo. The pressure needs to be dialed in by mechanical gauge and by feel, the two together, ensure enough pressure present to bring the clutches on quickly so they do not slip while not jarring the drivetrain in an uncomfortable way at part throttle, make sure wot pressure is sufficient for the transmission for example 4l80e up to 1000rwhp anywhere from 185psi to 205psi is common, and finally bring in the torque management last gradually to help the shift feel more comfortable and reduce tire spin if possible.
5.3/4l80e/turbo playthrough
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ge-budget.html
cancer research
https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5354/10/1/96
Instead of boosting pressure via force motor current, how come you don't extend shift times to compensate? This would give time for the shift to occur completely without jerking the driveline.
All shift time does is checks to see if adaptive is enabled, and if it is, it compares time of latest shift to desired shift time and if the time needs changing it changes the pressure slightly and tries again. It does nothing if adaptive is 'off'. all it does it adjust force motor current aka pressure based on desired vs actual time of latest shift.
There is no 'shift time' with a 4l60e or 4l80e. The solenoids are either on, or off. The time it takes is based on pressure and orifice/accumulation/surface area & volume of pressure apply piston area.
To put it another way. IF we designed our own transmission controller, what can it do to 4l60e and 4l80e
1. decide when to throw a solenoid on or off to change a gear
2. decide how much current (mA or milliamps) to apply to the EPC
Thats it. Thats all the control we have. There is no 'shift time'. You have a switch to throw to change a gear, and a pressure controller.
Helpful diagnostic and information for 4l80e
Here are the mods for successfully 800-1000rwhp 4l80e many of these coming from legendary 'clinebarger' Chris , some are custom for my decision
I Use only 2002-2004 rear lube 4l80e
Trans-go AFL valve fix kit
.044" - .054" Lube to line orifice, this is drilled into pump
1/4" Pump return enlarged and filed smooth all pumps get this
Only Borg Warner high energy clutches
Dual fed internally, no leaky shift kit plates, no leaky over-pressure mod
Do Not use HD2 shift kit!
1500 grit polished sprag races
2nd gear feed @ .097", 3rd gear @ .108", 4th @ .125"
Feed holes match well with 2800-3200rpm Yank Converter 9.5" Triple plate lockup
You must use lightweight 9.5" converter to reduce rotating mass and bushing wear.
All checkballs maintained!
Leave direct drum internal seal on (Do not remove like so many online tutorials recommend)
Rollerized rear output thrust surface (many ways to do this) Research!
Set Rear Roller Thrust for output shaft end play @ .003" from original 0.025" tightens up the 4l80e significantly and reduced friction
Front end play near .010" - .015" using new .075" pump washer
reaction carrier tightened up to center support at .012" from .037" (requires .005" shims)
all plastic thrust are replaced with metal (metal thrust kit)
.108" Thick HD intermediate snap ring absolutely required no matter what
Sonnax boost valve (OEM pressure) & PR valve w/ Internal pressure relief from Sonnax
.035" orifice added to edge of direct drum to prevent centrifugal apply (allows +7000rpm 4l80e)
File case tangs and pump recess de-burring before assembly and properly cleaning is essential, do not rush!
all new clutches, sprags, bearings, bushings, seals, thrust washers, bonded pistons standard rebuild kit items
my 4l80e rebuild
www.tinyurl.com/4l80er
Setting shift time doesn't change the target for the adaptives?
shift time is a target. All the ECU can do is change pressure to reach a target. It cannot control volume rate, that is done internally with mods we make to produce a performance transmission for a high output configuration.
For a performance transmission with modifications there are numerous reasons why putting the shift pressure into the hands of the computer is a bad idea. All you have to do is tune the transmission properly in the first place.
If you buy a Holley ECU you control the shift pressure directly through programming, you program it for YOUR transmission specifically. There is no adaptive. There is no shift time. It doesn't actually exist. Its just the softwares way of trying to communicate a function of comparison which may or may not work give a transmissions build properties and altering pressure over time to compensate for changes like wear.
Adaptive IMO is good for aging transmissions, you want the vehicle to go 20 years and as the trans wears out it needs increased pressure to maintain good shifting with slipping and aged parts. Or if the temperature suddenly changes and the default programming is too harsh it can soften out I guess. Kind of things you would do yourself if you have a stand-alone controller, or else the transmission really just needs to be rebuilt. Like sure we can depend on adaptive in 20 years to help the OEM trans live another year, but really it just needs a good going through.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/551-102
I think I see a misprint too rofl
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