Torque Management

[PewterMetallic98]

I've done some searching but can't find exactly what I need.

I am wondering how to reduce the torque management to exact;y 50% on my 98 C5. I'm not sure which table to get into. Also curious about if I should turn of abuse mode or not and what exactly it does. Attached is my bin file with nothing changed but fans and some DTC's being disabled. Can anyone help me out? Definitely just starting out.

[PewterMetallic98]

Can anyone please tell me which table I need to edit?

[SSUte01]

Firstly you have two main areas in which to change pertaining to Torque Management (TM)

- Engine
- Transmission

Personally I would turn off all engine TM and since I assume you are cable throttle it will have little effect anyways.

Go to Engine ==> Torque Mngt ==> General

Under this tab you can limit the severity of the Traction Control spark reduction to something a little more sane - personal preference I halve it (or more often turn it off with the button) No ETC, so no need to change anything else. I am still not convinced engine TM on non-ETC has much affect, but worth looking at.

Engine ==> Torque Mngt ==> Abuse

I am not certain on what exactly constitutes abuse to GM, but a series of inputs and calculated load, rpm etc etc can trigger this and use ETC (if fitted) and spark to reduce power. Set rpm here to say >7000 and speed <0.

Now for Transmission

Go to Tranmission ==> Torque Mngt ==> Abuse Mode

Disable this and not only setting to disable, zero the torque reduction table and set rpm to say 7000 and speed to 0. I have disabled this on cars (ETC mind you) and left the tables stock and it left me chasing my tail for some time tryin to figure out why I couldn't even turn the tyres without spark going to zero or retarded. As I understand it, abuse again relies on a host of inputs and more difficult to define on non-ETC and earlier models, but actions such as brake and throttle at the same time will cause 'limp' setting and abuse.

Tranmission ==> Torque Mngt ==> Torque Reduction

This is again a little personal preference and application dependant. If you want A4 longevity, it is imperitive that you leave some TM during the shifts IMO. Generally I halve these values on 'Normal' and 25% or less depending on use for 'Performance' (if fitted with Power/Tow button)

Take RussK (and others advice) and set TCC duty cycle to Max 100 and Min 90 - improves driveability amongst other things

I personally wouldn't zero the desired shift times in performance either and perhaps lower the normal times to to closer to 0.3 secs

General comments, take them for what you will.

- MAF curve looks stock (may not be just looks it)
- VE has some funky anomolies like peaking at 5500 and then dropping off etc
- Too much timing on HO table (if stock cam, if not disregard)
- Very large difference between HO and LO spark IMO
- PE far too rich for NA aim for 12.8 (conservative, EQ ~1.14)
- OLFA table is kinda strange, should be 1 at normal operating temp, leaving it rich at high MAP is personal prefernce again.
- Disable COT or set it to same as desired PE

They were just some observations, so dont take them as being critical, just things I would personally look into.

Cheers

[PewterMetallic98]

Firstly you have two main areas in which to change pertaining to Torque Management (TM)

- Engine
- Transmission

Personally I would turn off all engine TM and since I assume you are cable throttle it will have little effect anyways.

Go to Engine ==> Torque Mngt ==> General

Under this tab you can limit the severity of the Traction Control spark reduction to something a little more sane - personal preference I halve it (or more often turn it off with the button) No ETC, so no need to change anything else. I am still not convinced engine TM on non-ETC has much affect, but worth looking at.

Engine ==> Torque Mngt ==> Abuse

I am not certain on what exactly constitutes abuse to GM, but a series of inputs and calculated load, rpm etc etc can trigger this and use ETC (if fitted) and spark to reduce power. Set rpm here to say >7000 and speed <0.

Now for Transmission

Go to Tranmission ==> Torque Mngt ==> Abuse Mode

Disable this and not only setting to disable, zero the torque reduction table and set rpm to say 7000 and speed to 0. I have disabled this on cars (ETC mind you) and left the tables stock and it left me chasing my tail for some time tryin to figure out why I couldn't even turn the tyres without spark going to zero or retarded. As I understand it, abuse again relies on a host of inputs and more difficult to define on non-ETC and earlier models, but actions such as brake and throttle at the same time will cause 'limp' setting and abuse.

Tranmission ==> Torque Mngt ==> Torque Reduction

This is again a little personal preference and application dependant. If you want A4 longevity, it is imperitive that you leave some TM during the shifts IMO. Generally I halve these values on 'Normal' and 25% or less depending on use for 'Performance' (if fitted with Power/Tow button)

Take RussK (and others advice) and set TCC duty cycle to Max 100 and Min 90 - improves driveability amongst other things

I personally wouldn't zero the desired shift times in performance either and perhaps lower the normal times to to closer to 0.3 secs

General comments, take them for what you will.

- MAF curve looks stock (may not be just looks it)
- VE has some funky anomolies like peaking at 5500 and then dropping off etc
- Too much timing on HO table (if stock cam, if not disregard)
- Very large difference between HO and LO spark IMO
- PE far too rich for NA aim for 12.8 (conservative, EQ ~1.14)
- OLFA table is kinda strange, should be 1 at normal operating temp, leaving it rich at high MAP is personal prefernce again.
- Disable COT or set it to same as desired PE

They were just some observations, so dont take them as being critical, just things I would personally look into.

Cheers

Thank you very much for your reply! I took basically almost all of your advice but I want to reduce TM by 50% to keep the trans alive for as long as possible. When reducing TM, I know you edit the TM in the trans section but do you also do it in the engine? Like in Spark Retard vs. Torque Reduction?

[PewterMetallic98]

Here is my bin file to show you what I have done so far...

[flea]

I agree with SSUte01 regarding shift times staying closer to 0.3

The attached image is what 50% tranny torque reduction looks like (everything multiplied by 0.5)

Do you have a 160 degree thermostat? If not, with your fan settings it looks like you will have the fans running all the time.

You might also want to reconsider zeroing out all of the IAT based spark retard as it's there to protect the engine. Zero out 104 - 113 columns (and possibly reduce 122 F column by half). You can push this further but you need to do some data logging to see what it going on here.

If you want to remain a bit conservative keep the engine side of torque management.

[flea]

Also, do a search for RussK posts for C5 shift pressures as he is definitely the expert in this area.

[SSUte01]

Thank you very much for your reply! I took basically almost all of your advice but I want to reduce TM by 50% to keep the trans alive for as long as possible. When reducing TM, I know you edit the TM in the trans section but do you also do it in the engine? Like in Spark Retard vs. Torque Reduction?

That table you refer to is merely a reference for the PCM when it is 'reducing torque' For example, in the tune you posted earlier, as I understand it, if the PCM wanted to reduce torque (calculated torque by the PCM) by 50% it would reduce spark advance by 34* (which is a shit load btw). The other table below it Torque loss % vs Spark retard is the opposite, eg if I reduce advance by 33*, I will reduce calc torque by 47.6%. Lowering the values in the first table will reduce how much timing is removed to reduce what the PCM beleives is 50% etc. Think of these as the master look up reference for reducing spark in relation to torque, you can 'soften' the values here or to be more precise do it in the areas discussed, up to you. So in essence unless you are ETC I personally leave the General Tab alone except for TCS and disable Abuse on the Engine side and Tranny as discussed above by a few people.

Like Flea says, depends on how conservative you wish to be, try some settings and see how they go, just dont zero out tranny TM completely IMO.

[PewterMetallic98]

I agree with SSUte01 regarding shift times staying closer to 0.3

The attached image is what 50% tranny torque reduction looks like (everything multiplied by 0.5)

Do you have a 160 degree thermostat? If not, with your fan settings it looks like you will have the fans running all the time.

You might also want to reconsider zeroing out all of the IAT based spark retard as it's there to protect the engine. Zero out 104 - 113 columns (and possibly reduce 122 F column by half). You can push this further but you need to do some data logging to see what it going on here.

If you want to remain a bit conservative keep the engine side of torque management.

Yes I do have a 160* t-stat. I actually didn't modify the performance shift times. They were already set to 0 on my stock tune. Here is my stock bin file...

[SSUte01]

You probably don't have a tow/performance button, do you?

Anyways,

How does it feel now?

- I still think you have shit loads too much timing in there, unless some of the modifiers are at play 30ish* at WOT is 'probably' too much. I think you should reduce this to begin with and then get a WB and complete the VE/MAF first.

Once this is close, you can start to add timing and continue to fine tune the MAF

- Try setting the PE curve to 1.14 from 1600 up (KISS to begin with, you can tweak this later to find best tq and power although probably wont vary too much)

- Take Flea's advice and put some IAT spark protection back in there, stock or a little less to begin with it fine, about 110-120*F upwards will need to start pulling at least a little timing and increaisng with temp

- Burst Knock is gone, which is fine, I tend to use this approach as well, other disagree but if your timing table is set up well you shouldn't require it.

Key is to get Commanded AFR whether airflow modelling comes from MAF or SD to match actual measured AFR. I cannot suggest strongly enough the use of a WB to do this, if you dont have one you 'can' use fuel trims but I will admit I seldom use them (if ever now) for any tuning so I am not much good at giving adivce for using the narrowband approach, I simply do not have enough faith in them, although on a bolt on they should be fairly reasonable.

Here is a timing table I set up on a bolt on A4, it is not perfect and but it is a reasonable start point, fairly conservative in most areas, might wanna reduce WOT or yours might take more, that is for you to find out Let us know how it goes.

Cheers

[PewterMetallic98]

Well I actually haven't tried the tune out yet so can't really say. I don't have a tow/performance button either. I probably do have way too much timing in there. I tried plugging your chart directly into mine but it came out to be a shitload less than the stock settings for some reason?

I did go ahead and return the IAT spark table settings back to stock as Flea recommended. Can I try "setting the PE curve to 1.14 from 1600 up (KISS to begin with, you can tweak this later to find best tq and power although probably wont vary too much)" now or do I need to wait until I tune the MAF?

I don't have a wideband and probably can't get one for a while. I hope to purchase one in the future. Especially when I do my heads and cam.

[SSUte01]

Provided there are no multipliers reducing timing, do a log, then the timing table I suggested will work out fine. 25* IMO is quite a lot of WOT timing for a bolt on LS1, some run best with 20 and others 28 it is a matter of finding out. Just because it has less timing that stock does not mean it will run slower than stock Just be certain you are getting what you command or it might.

The PE settings are merely to command an AFR of 12.8, currently it is commanded IIRC 11.7 or so, so go and try, but reduce timing also. I honestly dont see any real way of tuning MAF/VE accurately to set up WOT without a WB, I guess that is why GM has it so damned rich stock, so that it is a near enough is good enough approach.

A little more shift pressure would firm up shift as well.

[Russ K]

Hughes,

I set up your tune including the trans tables. You did have the upshift torque reduction reduced by 50%. I put your high octane spark table back to stock as these cars have more than enough spark advance. I also turned off the rear O2 sensor codes as I see you have an off road x-pipe. Your fan on temps were too high for your stat so I set them the same as my car that also has a 160* stat.

With out a wideband I wouldn't change the PE tables. When you get your wideband, set the PE table to 1.13 (13.0 AFR). Then using this config file, rescale the maf table (in open loop) to get the actual AFR to match the commanded. Just insert your brand of wideband in place of my FJO in the table display. The histograms will then work, including the MAF AFR Error%.

You can scan the car to check the LTFT's and adjust the Maf table to get them between 0 and -7 untill you get your wideband.

I'm getting the invalid Vin/OS pair message when opening your files.

Russ Kemp

[PewterMetallic98]

Thank you so very much for all of your help!