Stoopilina and cam timing/airflow

[LilSick]

as most of you know, our very own Stoopalina is the airflow expert here these days - very knowledgeable guy : )

this is great cuz i have a question about cam timing and airflow for him or any of you:

say you have a "2018 392 stroker" (not certain on the actual displacement, sorry)

customers' cam choice was the oem manual trans (no mds) 392 cam

customers' engine assembler disassembled the phaser and put a comp cams lock inside of it

i was told the phaser is in the full advance position but its 50/50, could be full retard for all i know

as usual, no one degree'd anything - they are just gonna send it.

what is known is that this cam has 120.5 lobe separation, and is right around 215/220 at 050, 575/550 lift

naturally aspirated/stock intake manifold

^^^ that is all i know ^^^ fresh motor ^^^ working on a base tune ^^^

so my question is what would be your airflow strategy here Stoop?

*the controller being used for this application is a NGC3.

thanks in advance!

[Stoopalini]

Not sure I understand the question.

If the cam is locked into the fully advanced position ... and is a 392 cam (134 being fully advanced I believe?) on a N/A motor, the airflow should be pretty predictable. I guess I'd disable ANN, disable VVT, and use the VE tables to dial in the airflow. Assuming injector data is accurate, dial in the VE until the actual fueling matches commanded with minimal trims in closed loop and minimal EQ error during open loop.

[james1595]

I would question why it was locked and the cam not degreed. But it shouldn't be anything different than tuning a 392 cam on a stock motor

[LilSick]

on a stock 392 yes, ex centerline is about 134 at full advance

it is about 89 degrees at full retard


my first question is, how different would the fuel requirement be if at 89 degrees, rather than 134?

lets start with at idle...

[LilSick]

1) I would question why it was locked and the cam not degreed.

2) But it shouldn't be anything different than tuning a 392 cam on a stock motor

1) because the engine was put together by an engine assembler, not an engine builder

2) if i install a stock 392 cam in a 2018 5.7 it has vvt and i can manipulate cyl pressure and airflow

this cam is locked

full adv or full retard, not certain which

controller is NGC3 which means scanner has no channel for cam angle

[Stoopalini]

Are you trying to use the airflow + fueling logging to determine if the cam is fully advanced or fully retarded?

If so, I've no idea. I guess the VE would be different between the two, just not sure how. Maybe a log from a similar motor could provide some insight? Look at the VE at idle, when the cam should be fully advanced, and check the trims. Then look at your customers log at idle, and compare.

[JohnKey]

Being new to tuning and new to Dodge platform I have a lot of questions, and this topic is at the top of my list. I went by all of the information that was available to me, and other people about assembling the engine with a new cam, but degreeing the cam never seems to come up on the Dodge engines. I did do the research on the process and even bought a wheel and kit to do the job. I did not understand the need after installing the dodge phaser which has a slot to line up at 12 O'clock, and the camshaft pin along with it. Obvious crank position at #1 cyl tdc. This lined everything up automatically. I even rotated the phaser 1 tooth, but this was obviously way out. The crank would be obviously off as well when I tried to rotate a tooth. So, I figured after I put it together to just check rotation of engine several times to ensure timing. As I went with a very aggressive cam, MMX Max Effort V 2.0, It would be obvious if off. I did lock out the phaser. The car runs great in my opinion, but that is my opinion. Could it run better? I'm trying to learn that. This brings my next question. LILSICK, your avatar. Is that for use in a vvt motor or for non vvt? Should that be a consideration? I have read a few threads on how to check the cam for timing in scanner and it is mentioned here. I need to learn to do this, but can we clear up the need to degree one of these motors "VVT" for myself, and everyone else, so that it is not a problem for people. I wanted to possibly make a youtube video on educating people on it from what I learn here because I think that is where most everyone goes to learn how to do this stuff. Savage Randy seems to be pretty knowledgeable, and could possibly do it because he works on all of these.05082025 952 IDLE speed density.hpt

[LilSick]

it is for either design

[PurpleRam]

I would question why it was locked and the cam not degreed. But it shouldn't be anything different than tuning a 392 cam on a stock motor

The Controller is NGC3 , no provision for VVT , in that situation you need to lock it.

Unless you completely disassemble the Phaser and remove the clock spring, you can not "lock it" it in full Lil Sick.

FCA consulted Comp cams when they redesigned the VVT for production, the system that DCX had started to work on in late 06 for 08 production was a complicated gear drive POS, soooooooooooooo in an odd way we should be thankful for that late 07/08 economic ,elt down...

FCA unlike DCX , Knew people were going to ( and love to) f' with their HEMI , so FCA was thinking about the aftermarket when the Phaser was redesigned, they took a lot of recommendations from COMP , the system is designed to be "straight up" with aftermarket cams.
Stanke motorsports and Nutter Racing have had multi Keyway crank sprockets since 2014. I've broach(ed) keyways for these OEM sprockets since 2016 , that way I can get that Funky 117 INCL and still use the phaser( OPENS UP A NEW world of hate on those 8hp trans.)

[LilSick]

FCA consulted Comp cams

yep

this is why we have a single bolt design and a minuscule dowel pin

[LilSick]

As I went with a very aggressive cam, MMX Max Effort V 2.0, It would be obvious if off.

The car runs great in my opinion, but that is my opinion. Could it run better?

that cam is so aggressive the grinder cannot disclose the actual exhaust duration without risk of knocking the earth off its axis! not. obvious it was off? why so? lope separation decreased by almost 10 degrees from oem it will seem like its off when its straight up (112). why would you buy the stuff and then not check where the cam is?

[PurpleRam]

yep

this is why we have a single bolt design and a minuscule dowel pin

And what does that have to do with any thing here, I mean seriously , 99% of the people who come across this(or come here to LEARN how to tune their HEMI) ARE NEVER going to build some thing that would break that pin, you can't run enough spring pressure on these stock G3 hemi heads to break that pin.........The cheap a$$ lock pin will fail before that locating pin will.....Locating pin is solid tool steel , Lock pin is a hollow sleeve(ish) piece of Alum ....that'll break( and it does) 1st . Comp wanted 3 bolt, which wouldn't of worked with having 5 oil cavities , there's barely enough room for the pin that is in there, 3 cavity design returned the cam back to full advance inconstantly, so 5 cavity it is.

The Newer(2015) 354/426 Drag pak stuff run 60mm core cams and sure as crap don't use a stock 4.5 lbs of parasitic robing rotational weight FCA calls a phaser. and the 09/2011 were Class stock style builds using Non VVt blocks , so we have to run stock style cores, I can't run more than 600 open on those 6.1 heads(in my 09 DP car) with out cracking the seats in the head , and that pin (which is old school size) WILL NEVER FAIL at that level. for the last 10 years I've gone across the 1k ft mark at 92XX/95XX RPMs...same cam, same cam gear(SA Gear, can not praise them enough) 130 passes in 10 years and I still haven't checked main/rod bearings.....can't say that about my 64 G2 hemi car. or the Wayne County B1 in my Avenger(Roll bar is where I had my crack in to the 6s power adder)

[LilSick]

The Newer(2015) 354/426 Drag pak stuff run 60mm core cams and sure as crap don't use a stock 4.5 lbs of parasitic robing rotational weight FCA calls a phaser

what do you mean that phaser rules i heard fca worked with comp cams to design it

: )

[JohnKey]

Because after I looked at dozens of YouTube videos, and them never doing it, I figured that was the correct way because of the references. I mean tdc is non negotiable. The phaser which has the slot for the cam pin goes 12 O'clock. I did try to manipulate the chain, but it was obvious it was off on either end. Basically I am self taught on this subject. Also I built a 700 hp 5.7 SC with a P1SC and did same procedure. Ran the piss out of it to and from work every day. No problem. That's why I want to clear it up. Yall mentioned that so many people do it. Why? Is it because they believe that they are doing the right thing? Sure. No one is going to intentionally sabotage their investment. The next time that I build one I will degree it. I'm enjoying the journey. Might mess something up along the way, but it's an education. Try college tuition. It's still cheaper than a semester. Depending on what you are building.