How much advance are you running at WOT?

[thebrickbandit]

Just curious how much advance you guys are running on your hemi

6.1 based 426
only running about 20 degrees at WOT cuz im scared

[04silverado6.0]

Not much returns above that. What mods? Ive also noticed the handful ive had on the dyno like about a .83-.85 lambda for best power.

[LaBrat]

SBE 5.7 with FBO and a 224/234 cam on 93, I run 20-23 degrees depending on the RPM. Used to run 25 degrees but saw nothing so i backed it down.

[PurpleRam]

For those who don?t want to read this novel ??24* seems to be the Go-to # to aim for.
I don?t care about E85, in this area it?s junk and very inconsistent, Many a burnt up Pro tuner hemi(s) in the Philly/NJ area due to ?E85 tunes? you 5 D-bags know who you are?. And I?m not a Boost guy?
Sooooooooooo speaking 93oct and race fuels here.
Traditionally, Most people say the larger the bore the more spark that is needed, the higher the RPM the more spark needed?
G3 world seems to be ? ?special? ?, 6.1/Pre-Eagle 5.7,heads , 24* to 26* seem to be the sweet spot no matter the bore or cubic inch, Stock Ci 5.7s run best at 12.30 AFR , 6.1s like 12.0-12.10 AFR , on an OEM short block ?28*+ is destructive?I don?t CARE if your knock sen-sore or the PCM?s knock sensor are saying?Yeap it?s all golden.

Since your running a 426/6.1 build, I assume your 426 is 4.08X4.08 , w/6.1 heads , 24* is where I?d run it, but if your knock sensor is staying under 2.75-3v (on average)stay at 26*
Dish pistons (either 2 or 5 cc) I?d go down to 24* from 2200 till max Total VE and bump up to 26* where it dips back under max Total Ve go back to 24* and see if you pick up anything,
The early Iron block 6.1 based 426 (4.09X4.05) I ran in the 09 Drag Pak car , Single plane intake and 270/263 @ .050 camshaft ,Mike or Ray Barton did the 6.1 heads , the heads started out as the Mopar CNC version(same casting as OEM 6.1s), I ran 22* from 1600 till 6k from 6000 to 7400 it was 24* , tried 26* a few times for the 7200(ish) out to 8300 range but didn?t gain anything. Ran 8.90s with 24* , needed 26* when I ran single plug per cylinder to hit the same ET&MPH .. .. Now Wallace ? mile calculator says 1050hp based on ET , on my superflow 902 that engine was mid 950s, on my friends SF901 it made 975hp.
The 426( 425.05ci, actual) that?s in that car now is alum block with B&S of 4.165X3.90 , I use a smaller cam, compression is 2 points lower, Heads are DSR 2015 DP heads , roughly the same HP and this 426 runs??you guessed it.. 24* all in by 1800 RPMs and rides it out to 9k RPMs
Staying on the 426 theme here , February I did a Dart Block build 4.25X3.75 same bore & stroke as the original G2 426 Hemi , customer supplied AFR BlackHawk 225cc heads 69CC chamber, I spec?d the cam , 245/240 .619/.600 117 LSA , Now I?ve built G2 hemi?s with similar cam and Head flow#s , the G2 needed 36-40* to make the same power this thing made @ 22* , it didn?t care for 28* and it hated my a$$ at 30* FWIW the G3 version made 75hp more with 26* and doesn?t need 100oct to make 700hp?granted not a true Apples to Apples comparison more of a Red Apple to Green Apple ..

Eagle heads?.. 18-20* is what I see a lot of other tuners aiming for , if you bring FA enrichment in early , 22* is do able, not going to say it?ll make more power , but the fuel milage and overall emissions are slightly better.?? If I soften the chamber on the Eagle head, they?ll go to 24* and make about 10-12% more HP,
When TSP came out with their VVT cams, I did some testing for ?Big Cam company? (old long working relationship w/them) every combo I tested was with in margin of error, FWIW best bang for the buck with stock Eagle heads on a stock 5.7 VVT engine is TSP stage 3 cam??Point is , TSP claimed 490HP @ 6000 , I averaged 485 with 20*, pulled the heads on the test mule , softened the chambers , re-ran it and hit 535hp at 6200 with 24* on 93oct , pulled timing to 20* and made 480(ish) on 89oct.
Now for 418/433ci builds with Eagle heads, if you run a real tight Piston to head clearance and a dished piston that is re-shaped to match the Eagle chamber outline?.you can run 22-24 and make some good power. I had a 04 5.7 build 427ci stroker here this past January, (4.00X4.25) some no-name head ported Eagle heads ,short block was zero Deck height with oil pressure , Piston to head was equal to the crushed thickness of .030 steel gasket, I know real tight, ..REAL f?n tight, but this build is using Oliver Rods and won?t see * cough ,cough* anything over 7500rpms?. Piston had a 12cc dish that was reworked to match the outline of the Eagle head chamber, static compression was(is) 11.5 to 1 ,cam is off the shelf Texas Speed NA stage 4 cam(for 6.1/5.7 non VVT), not really a big cam, 226/235 at .050 , sub .600 lift , it made 630 hp with 24* @ 5800 rpm? I could run it up to 26/28 but it didn?t gain anything, head flowed around 330-335cfm @.650 lift, Intake manifold is a PreFix cascar single plane using a 105MM TB and 62(maybe 68)lbs injectors. Bench mount PCM was GPEC2 this engine is going in to a 2014/15 Charger?..Don?t remember,don?t care.

Apache/BGE heads don?t respond the same with softening the chamber, they like rolling the edge to a 45 degree chamfer or 1/8 rolled radius . I?ve run as high as 24 with an AFR of 11.90 , low 12s AFR = 22* , Now with a Nice clean rolled edge of the Combustion chamber , The 1320 Challenger I had for while , only Mod was that rolled edge, (I know right, pull that engine all apart and only mod the Combustion chamber edge) ran a 12.20-12.30 AFR , 24 total timing all in by 2400 and ran deep in to the 11s at Maple Grove and Island Dragway, (500ft elevation?) went sub 11s with that old hated Comp 274 cam..I do miss that car.
When I was running the alum block 468(4.185X4.25) with Thitek ?bear? heads in the 04 Yellow GTX, it had 12.5 CC domes and was just shy of 13 to 1, comp , on 93 OCT it liked 22* below 4600, 4600-5100RPMs I dipped it down to 20* and from 5100 to 7k went back to 22 , 24* from 7k out to the 8160 Limit of the NGC PCM .. on 93oct it was close to 750hp , On VP110 I ran a straight 24* from 2200 to 8160, on VP110 it made 810hp. It never went any faster with 26* or 28* When I switched from the T56 to the Lenco trans , Timing stayed the same, when I ran a TH400 with the 5500 stall , (with VP110) it needed 26* on the top end(5500+) to make the same ETs but wanted 24 up to 5500. Never ran it on 93 when I had the TH400 in the truck?..On Methanol with 6.5 AFR ??..24* was good, 26* was best , 28* led to the 448ci that?s still sitting in the corner of the shop.

My 05 5.7 Bee,
Engine is 99% stock, only mods are 180 t-Stat K&N air filter in the stock Airbox and 3.5 in exhaust from the Y-pipe back, still running OEM cats , this Bee did go on a diet and got down to 4250 with 4 gallons of fuel... and I run a 5.13 rear gear with MT sportsman 31X18-20 tires, chassis is far from stock. The 545 POS trans has a shift improver kit and replaced the valve body pistons.
On the W.O.T table I run 24* all in by 2200 rpms, then pull down to 22* @4400-4800 than back up to 24* and ride that out to 7k(I'm not turning this thing that high..close but not 7k ) truck weighs about 4500 ?race? weight , best run this past weekend was 12.96 @ 104 , , did a 12.99 @ 104 then then the 96 , last two passes where low 13s with 102/103MPH , I?ll drive in to Maple Grove , go through tech , go and make a 13.10 pass 90% of the time(depending on heat/humidity blah blah,& blah) and get 14.5 mpg on my hour ride home.
The ?curve? looks a lot like what we use to run our 35Xci R5P7 stuff and (GM) SB2s. 14* from off idle to about 1100, 16* from 11-1500 and ramp up from 18* @ 1800 to 24* @ 2200.
I?ve had a few Pre Eagle 5.7s on the Dyno , where I?ll run this timing map with an 04 Bench mount NGC controller and routinely hit 410-420hp(I?m 540ft above sea level)
{ side note , back around 2019/2020 I did some dyno testing a stock lift (474/465) cam with 240/234 @ .050 117 LSA installed @ 114 , for a 05 5.7 stocker , with same 24* timing map I use in my 05 bee , it made 460-465 Hp in the 6800 RPM range depending on the day , it made high 470?s and cracked 480 once with a 26* total , but average HP/Tq was down 15/15 .

[PurpleRam]

Dam HP cut off the last of that post.
{W.O.T table for the 05 5.7 BEE}
the ?row axis ?on this W.O.T table are re-scaled , there?s no MAP values below 70kPa on that table , that allows me to fine tune the actual area on the table this truck runs in at W.O.T , looking back through 100?s of hours of logs , this thing has never cracked 100kPa , so there?s no reason to keep 102/105kPa on the table, every time the Accelerator pedal Voltage went above 2.5v there were no MAP values under 70kPa , so why keep the 50-65kPa values.
10 of the 15 cells on this W.O.T table are used for 85-100kPa 96,97,98,99,100kPa all have their own dedicated row.
The 448(4.1X4.25)& T56 combo in my other 05 Bee, With the Apache heads & 93 oct my best power was @ 26* with less aggressive ramp then what I run in the ?stocker? Bee , now that I have the AFR Black Hawks with the 69cc Chamber, I run 24* max all in by 2800 and make about 55hp more on the same 93oct.

[LilSick]

Sooooooooooo speaking 93oct and race fuels here.

who's 93 are you equating to which race fuel

[thebrickbandit]

im running 93 but open to e85 and more timing if its worth the hassle of checking each fill up the ethanol content... i have enought fuel pump and injector to run e85. just seems like a pain checking ethanol content each tank... im about 11.5 to 1

[LilSick]

i am a distributer for flexpro and can get you a deal if you wanna go flex

app on phone tells you exact alky content in fuel rail at all times

box compensates perfectly, correcting the mixture instantly


far as timing goes - there are more variables than just chamber design and bore size

a dense fuel is gonna burn slower and require more lead

we never know the specific gravity (density) of pump gas

ethanol is .79x g/cm cubed !!!

i have ran VP race gas that was as dense as .750 (T-4)

all the way down to C14+ which is very light .693

the smaller the number, the less lead it is gonna want for a given bore/chamber design.

with pump gas ya never know... so as a mindful tuner i have to stay a lil conservative

[04silverado6.0]

Ive definitely seen around 26* pre eagle. Had a early truck on the dyno awhile back that picked up good power to 26*. These engines definitely appreciate a richer mixture. Something like .83 lambda seems to be my experience. Im loosing power on slightly leaner mixtures.

[PurpleRam]

who's 93 are you equating to which race fuel

Not equating 93 to race fuel at all , what I said was Not talking E85 and Not talking Boost , ........both of those are different situations , and both of those I don't give a phuck about.

[LilSick]

Sooooooo speaking 93oct and race fuels here.

oh

[PurpleRam]

Ive definitely seen around 26* pre eagle. Had a early truck on the dyno awhile back that picked up good power to 26*. These engines definitely appreciate a richer mixture. Something like .83 lambda seems to be my experience. Im loosing power on slightly leaner mixtures.

26* will make a few more HP, but on an OEM short block , it can destructive especially on the 6.1 with OEM pistons. , those early Pistons , the top ringland is very close to the top and ring gap can be less than .008 , for stock cams and some of the smaller cams it's fine but once you start getting in to those IVC events that are less than 40* ABDC , it takes a toll.'

aftermarket pistons, If you're making good hp with 26* do it but OEM, .......Look I've done some whack out crap with these , I regularly spin a few SBE 5.7s up in to the low 7k RPMs but I keep it all 24* or under.