Info on 2015 ECM used in Caddy CTSV sport please?

[Jim Blackwood]

So just purely for the fun of it I thought I'd run down the details of that "garbage engine" I'm using. You might find it entertaining. I'll start with some basics. Engine weight is 400 lbs. The aftermarket heads add about 10lbs and the blower adds 50, so the total with the blower is the same as a naturally aspirated all aluminum LS. The Buick 300 block is a modern light weight thinwall casting of high nickle content for long life and stiffness deburred and ceramic coated inside and out.
Bore is 3.830"
Crank is nodular iron 340 with mains reduced to 3" and seal journals ground for viton seals, stock 3.850" stroke
Stainless main cap stabilizer plate
Displacement: 346 ci or 5.7L
Rod and main bearing clearances set to .0008-.0012"
540 gram Carillo rods
380g Wiseco forged pistons w/83g pins, rings are 30-35g
TA Performance 264-74-R solid lifter roller cam, .544" lift, 264/274 dur and 112 LS
Aftermarket aluminum CNC ported TA/Rover heads with modern heart shaped closed chambers, 1.9/1.6" titanium valves, beehive 350 lb springs, stud mount TA roller rockers. Largest ports in the industry for SBB by a wide margin.
Intake has vertical ports with injectors mounted directly above the valves
Modified "Lightning" M112 Eaton blower inverted and mounted in the lifter valley, discharge and inlet both directed upwards
Hat for intake manifold can be equipped with an air/liquid intercooler if desired. It isn't, no advantage with the expected boost level
Inlet is an Enderlie style throttle body/air cleaner/Bug Catcher fitted with a 2" standoff containing the MAF sensor
Port injection, '411 ECM
COP
10.5 CR
Boost is expected to be between 4 and 6 psi
Expected redline is 7500rpm
more details but why bother? It's probably more than you wanted to see anyway. This particular engine is awaiting ceramic coating of the heads, intake and timing cover and should go in the car this winter. All but basic engine machine work was done in-house.

By any definition this engine is as modern as any non-DI engine being mass-produced today. The combustion chamber and inlet tract alone make it so. For a garbage engine it ain't half bad. Uses the stock '02 Camaro sensors including the dual pattern degree wheel and except for the TPS which is crap.

And you guys tried to tell me that it couldn't be made to run with the '411. You were wrong. It will be the 3rd SBB engine to run on that processor that I can personally verify. So are you also wrong about the AA80E? Yeah, more likely than not. I think I'll enjoy proving that.

Jim

[edcmat-l1]

So just purely for the fun of it I thought I'd run down the details of that "garbage engine" I'm using. You might find it entertaining. I'll start with some basics. Engine weight is 400 lbs. The aftermarket heads add about 10lbs and the blower adds 50, so the total with the blower is the same as a naturally aspirated all aluminum LS. The Buick 300 block is a modern light weight thinwall casting of high nickle content for long life and stiffness deburred and ceramic coated inside and out.
Bore is 3.830"
Crank is nodular iron 340 with mains reduced to 3" and seal journals ground for viton seals, stock 3.850" stroke
Stainless main cap stabilizer plate
Displacement: 346 ci or 5.7L
Rod and main bearing clearances set to .0008-.0012"
540 gram Carillo rods
380g Wiseco forged pistons w/83g pins, rings are 30-35g
TA Performance 264-74-R solid lifter roller cam, .544" lift, 264/274 dur and 112 LS
Aftermarket aluminum CNC ported TA/Rover heads with modern heart shaped closed chambers, 1.9/1.6" titanium valves, beehive 350 lb springs, stud mount TA roller rockers. Largest ports in the industry for SBB by a wide margin.
Intake has vertical ports with injectors mounted directly above the valves
Modified "Lightning" M112 Eaton blower inverted and mounted in the lifter valley, discharge and inlet both directed upwards
Hat for intake manifold can be equipped with an air/liquid intercooler if desired. It isn't, no advantage with the expected boost level
Inlet is an Enderlie style throttle body/air cleaner/Bug Catcher fitted with a 2" standoff containing the MAF sensor
Port injection, '411 ECM
COP
10.5 CR
Boost is expected to be between 4 and 6 psi
Expected redline is 7500rpm
more details but why bother? It's probably more than you wanted to see anyway. This particular engine is awaiting ceramic coating of the heads, intake and timing cover and should go in the car this winter. All but basic engine machine work was done in-house.

By any definition this engine is as modern as any non-DI engine being mass-produced today. The combustion chamber and inlet tract alone make it so. For a garbage engine it ain't half bad. Uses the stock '02 Camaro sensors including the dual pattern degree wheel and except for the TPS which is crap.

And you guys tried to tell me that it couldn't be made to run with the '411. You were wrong. It will be the 3rd SBB engine to run on that processor that I can personally verify. So are you also wrong about the AA80E? Yeah, more likely than not. I think I'll enjoy proving that.

Jim

Nobody ever said that. As far as I know that's never been part of the discussion. Old small blocks, LT1s even can be run with GEN3 PCMs with the proper cam and crank signals. This is not even in the same universe as what you're talking about doing.

At this point it seems you're just trolling.

[blindsquirrel]

By any definition this engine is as modern as any non-DI engine being mass-produced today.

No, it is not.

The combustion chamber and inlet tract alone make it so.

It really is not, not by any measure.

Just because you personally like it a lot (which is fine), that does not make it the best. You might like eating a bowl of runny dogshit for breakfast every day, and that would be fine, but don't be offended when no one else will agree with you.

[blindsquirrel]

You do realize that a 1000 HP LS is literally any junkyard engine, and literally any aftermarket camshaft (with the right cam it would not even need aftermarket valve springs), and the right turbo, injectors, and every single other part still stock from the junkyard, right? No ceramic this or titanium that or custom billet anodized anything...

How many 1K HP LS engines could you build for what's being spent on this 70 year old Buick thing? Two? Three?

[Jim Blackwood]

I really thought I was done with this thread but you guys have surprised me. Shall we continue then?

So the engine. Well you'd have to buy it first. Around here a year or so ago when I last looked you could pick up an LS at the junkyard for $1200-$1500, last 300 I bought for $350 so I could buy 3 to 5 for what a junkyard LS cost. (It would need to be the aluminum one for weight comparability) After that the parts and machine work are about the same. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. One of the SBB guys made 750 dynoed RWHP with a turbo on a completely stock, untouched junkyard Buick 350 a decade ago and he wasn't pushing it to the limit. So I'm not sure I follow you. Where is the big advancement? Chamber design? TA's heart shaped chamber is every bit as good as any LS chamber. The ports? TA heads flow just as well as LS heads. Heck you can even buy pistons with the dish matched to the chamber shape if you want. So what's so special, just because it has a bowtie on it? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A vertical inlet runner? Got that. Thinner rings? Got it. What's left? Name me one thing that will result in higher performance.

Don't get me wrong, the LS is a great engine and has virtually alone insured the survival of the pushrod V8. For that reason it deserves absolutely the highest praise possible. But it is hardly unique, and it is hardly the only solution to every question. And it is hardly the best engine to fit in every car. In this particular application, (which is justly popular with the new generation as well) the Buick 300 turns out to be the ideal candidate because it's a bolt-in fit, it has factory sanction and historical precedence, it provides the best balance and performance at the lowest cost and many other reasons. We have proven it can be upgraded to modern standards as well. What is lacking is a modern automatic and as the old guard ages those become more attractive.

I agree that a 10 speed would be ludicrous. Even 8 seems like a bit much. But the old 4L60 requires cutting the floor and tunnel due to the wide pan so that is less than ideal and the 6 speed got such a bad rap that nobody even took the time to see if it perhaps had gone to the narrow pan design common in the newer cars. IIRC the gear spread alone was atrocious. Add to that the requirement to adapt from the old and extremely common BOP bellhousing pattern to whatever GM used, presumably either the Chevy or the "Small Corporate" pattern of the V6-60 and all of a sudden the SOBs (some other brands) start to look interesting. The AA80E, designated Aisin TL-80SN in the 2014-2019 Cadillac CTS was an absolute standout when introduced in 2013 and there simply was not anything else comparable. I'm not sure there is even now. Using the proprietary Toyota drivetrain management to run the Buick never seemed feasible but because of the Cadillac connection it looked like there might be another valid approach. Between times an aftermarket solution was considered but when the developer of the Megashift cut and ran rather than complete his vow to make the two changes to the software that would have allowed it to be used to control the Aisin that option dissolved. I'm sure there were other factors involved but last time I looked the megashift was just slowly fading away. I sold on the hardware, left the Mega community for that and reliability reasons, at the advice of Scott Costanzo migrated to the '411 and never looked back. I feel that was a very wise decision and the '411 is very capable and utterly unimpeachably reliable. My current state of tune with it running the stock 300 "Mule" is such that Nick could easily perfect the tune but I want to wait until the blown stroker goes in to spend that money. That should tell you that it runs well enough to not be much of an inconvenience.

That brings us to now. And with your considerable assistance I have mapped out a possible path to success. Is it an easy one? No. At this point there simply is not any path that could be said to be easy. Even were the perfect transmission along with it's own dedicated stand alone TCM all of which would fit without any modifications were to appear over the horizon, it would in the very least require two things: An engine to transmission adapter, probably a custom one, and the outlay of much cash, very likely between $3500 and $5000 at least. I am no rich man and I've always preferred to labor over spending. But even if my time has a low value we are talking about a ten grand swap to install an automatic. Worth it? Yeah probably. But when I have a brand new one ready to go that has already functioned in the car, all of which sits up on the pallet rack gathering dust, why wouldn't I try to sort out some kind of a controller for it? Until I expend $10k in my time and associated costs it remains worthwhile one would think. You may not agree and that's your right. But I don't think you have grounds to tell me I'm wrong either.

So far as I have been able to tell nobody to date has even considered the possibility that a DI controller could drive PI injectors. It's a shortcoming common to poor hindsight, but it's suggested as fact that with the exception of a small group of GM engineers nobody even knows. I suggest we find out. Worst odds, 50/50 and an external circuit should reduce the chance of failure to zero. I've worked with worse.

Jim

Oh, and Ed, that was a much earlier thread, probably back around 2017 and I used the term "you guys" as an inclusive of the entire board some of which were participants of both discussions.
J

[abc]

I say go for it, let us know how it turns out. Preferably in the next few months as I have ADHD.

[blindsquirrel]

The words wouldn't come out of my mouth, for I didn't want to seem so greedy nor so stupid.

And once I seen that, I seen too that there wasn't nothing else I wanted, except maybe another piece of cake and some more tea with honey in it.

But just as I was opening my mouth to say that, another idea struck me. I considered, and Ursala seen me do it. "What is it?" she says.

"You know lots of things, Dam Ursala," I says to her. "More than anyone I ever met."

She shaked her head, it seemed with sadness. "I know a little more than you do," she said. "Not much. Not nearly enough."

She was being honest, or thought she was, but all the same what she was saying wasn't anywise true. I learned since then, and paid a price to learn it, that them as lay claim to great wisdom most often got nothing in their store but bare scrapings. And by the same token, them as think they're ignorant think it because they can see the edges of what they know, which you can only see when what you know is tall enough to stand on and take a look around. I had no idea of this back then, but I still knowed that Ursala was a lot cleverer than me and I believed that the things I wanted to know about must surely lie in her telling.

[Jim Blackwood]

Funny, Squirrel. I know you are trying to be oblique about calling me an idiot but it'd do you more credit to think a little about the things I have said and consider if they might not have some merit rather than blindly following the naysayers.

Jim

[gtstorey]

Several of us have thought about what you have said and have decided they don't have merit.

[edcmat-l1]

Funny, Squirrel. I know you are trying to be oblique about calling me an idiot but it'd do you more credit to think a little about the things I have said and consider if they might not have some merit rather than blindly following the naysayers.

Jim

You cannot drive port injectors with a DI controller, period.

[blindsquirrel]

You cannot drive port injectors with a DI controller, period.

I don't understand that part, can you restate it in a more complicated way?

I mean, P01, E92, they are just numbers, and all a computer does is turn things on and off at various times, it will just require some out-of-the-box thinking, surely.

HOW HARD COULD IT BE? he said...

[blindsquirrel]

If you take this thread and replace 'E92' with 'arduino', it's funny how similar these two are: https://forum.arduino.cc/t/arduino-b...ion-ecu/208115

[Jim Blackwood]

Actually I probably believe you guys just because the stack-up of obstacles reach a very high bar. Probably never will completely buy the "impossible" part but this is quite likely to go down as one of my greatest disappointments, and a gamble I should have passed on. Smartest thing to do is probably to sell the 8 speed. They were going for like 2 grand used but maybe not these days. Just let it sit I guess. Maybe some day there will be a stand-alone controller available for it. Probably not.

Jim

[edcmat-l1]

Actually I probably believe you guys just because the stack-up of obstacles reach a very high bar. Probably never will completely buy the "impossible" part but this is quite likely to go down as one of my greatest disappointments, and a gamble I should have passed on. Smartest thing to do is probably to sell the 8 speed. They were going for like 2 grand used but maybe not these days. Just let it sit I guess. Maybe some day there will be a stand-alone controller available for it. Probably not.

Jim

The electronics are completely different to drive DI injectors versus port injectors.

[Jim Blackwood]

Yes I picked up on that a long time ago. Well I've gone into search mode again, and *this* time around came up with what appears to be a very forward thinking company in Poland who are marketing a stand-alone controlled designed to be applicable to any transmission. So we shall see. Price is about 1300 euro, if it works I expect it would be worth it. I hope to hear from them soon.

Jim

[edcmat-l1]

Yes I picked up on that a long time ago. Well I've gone into search mode again, and *this* time around came up with what appears to be a very forward thinking company in Poland who are marketing a stand-alone controlled designed to be applicable to any transmission. So we shall see. Price is about 1300 euro, if it works I expect it would be worth it. I hope to hear from them soon.

Jim

Funny, Squirrel. I know you are trying to be oblique about calling me an idiot but it'd do you more credit to think a little about the things I have said and consider if they might not have some merit rather than blindly following the naysayers.

Jim

Really? Just 2 days ago you were still telling Squirrel not to listen to the naysayers.

[Jim Blackwood]

Well he shouldn't. Just on general principles if nothing else. Look Ed, I'm not conceding anything here. I'm saying it looks like it may be more trouble than it's worth to adapt the L92. That is entirely different from saying it can't be done. Especially if that Polish company comes through.

Jim

[biholliday]

Richard Holdener just put a set of LT heads on an LS block. It required a special camshaft but it made way more power than the LS head. Just sayin, may have had to do other things cuz i did not watch the whole video.

[blindsquirrel]

Right, LT heads with a port injection manifold and a port injection ECU. But you know what makes even more power than a LT/LS/port injector hybrid mix-n-match? Just a complete DI engine with all the other DI parts and a DI ECM.

[biholliday]

right. Please excuse my ignorance