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Thread: Fuel Economy and Less Regens

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    How much fuel addition starts getting into unsafe territory? I'm running in the 30 to 40 percent addition now showing the best results...

    When you say BP ratio - I assume Boost Pressure to Fuel correct? What would be a good target? I've noticed that I can have fuel knock at times, but the second you hit boost with fuel staying the same the knock goes away - are diesels this sensitive to an air fuel ratio?

    Why is it I can change rail pressure - which I assume raising it puts more of the fuel in at the original soi point - does the engine get quieter?

    What is a good rail pressure target that won't overly stress the pump?
    The fuel amount depends on your oxygen density, just like a gas there is a optimum AFR. Diesel's have a sweet spot for making power, but unlike gas Stoich is that theoretical sweet spot, which is 14.5:1. Unlike gas we don't care about getting the mixture richer to become more stable so we can advance timing, we want it to be well mixed and very unstable so it's rate of heat release is quick and then center peak pressure just after TDC. I can't give you a number even if i could each vehicle/engine is different, you need a dyno to find this number or a cylinder transducer. Also pilot amount and timing will change noise, say noise goes up but you're making more power/tq then start tweaking pilot mass and advance. BP ratio is back pressure ratio, or intake pressure to exhaust pressure. The way i find this is take manifold pressure minus current barometric = X, then take back pressure minus baro = Y. I end up with Y/X=BP ratio. This ratio matters to see how much we are constipating the engine, most gas cars don't care because they don't have a VGT to be able to fine tune it. So back pressure is fixed until the wastegate opens. For rail pressure Your pilot is changing as well which plays a big role on noise. I believe anything within the manufacture's spec is good, I've seen a few CP4.2's ran at 31kpsi that have had issues. Because of this i stay at the manufacture's spec. Here is a good read on Pilot inejction and noise. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

  2. #22
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    So if I'm understanding or translating this anywhere near correctly optimal injection timing is right around 6ish degrees for peak efficiency/cylinder pressure for idle or lower rpms, but to keep the emission's clean, reduce engine noise and subsequently better protect the motor then I need a lot more pilot injection in these areas and what I'm assuming cruise areas? I also need to be logging or calculating back pressure - which I'm not entirely sure is possible with the scanner on this motor? What kind of BP do I need to stay clear of?

    This is the tune right now or rather at the moment - has the best trans tune so far, but does still require fine tuning of shift times at different tq's - very hard to do with hpt's scanner as it doesn't even show engine tq... This tune is getting the best 45 to 50 mph economy so far (35 to 36 mpg), but seems lower on power and haven't been able to test on highway yet - just put it in this morning...
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    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    So if I'm understanding or translating this anywhere near correctly optimal injection timing is right around 6ish degrees for peak efficiency/cylinder pressure for idle or lower rpms, but to keep the emission's clean, reduce engine noise and subsequently better protect the motor then I need a lot more pilot injection in these areas and what I'm assuming cruise areas? I also need to be logging or calculating back pressure - which I'm not entirely sure is possible with the scanner on this motor? What kind of BP do I need to stay clear of?

    This is the tune right now or rather at the moment - has the best trans tune so far, but does still require fine tuning of shift times at different tq's - very hard to do with hpt's scanner as it doesn't even show engine tq... This tune is getting the best 45 to 50 mph economy so far (35 to 36 mpg), but seems lower on power and haven't been able to test on highway yet - just put it in this morning...
    Take that write up with its intent, which was to give you data and information on how their changes were affecting engine operation. If you have a different compression ratio and a different injector your results will vary vastly. For you it will be less or more because we don't know your injectors delay or how long it takes for it to go from fully closed to fully open after being excited. That delay is built into the tune and has a capped amount of fine adjustment. But that is typically miniscule anyways when compared to spray pattern and compression. Don't read to far into it and try to nail down a theoretical number, make small changes to it and see what it does, if you tune professionally you should know many things will affect this theoretical number. Also if you look at tune revisions over the years, car/truck manufactures learn more and more as time goes on, they will update these learned changes to ECU's when people come in for minor repair work. Learn to accept good enough or die trying to perfect this ever changing value. Most guys are lucky to get even close to what you're getting for mileage, also don't let a little more noise bother you, go listen to a 7.3 with 500k miles on it. It's loud and still runs! For back pressure or BP ratio anything under 2.0 is okay, I like to stay around 1.5 to 1.75 under WOT for a hot tuneup working the turbo pretty good. For better mileage the lower the BP ratio without loosing boost the better, and the less the engine is fighting itself and gained efficiency. Some guys claim they get 1.0 under WOT on a hot tune but i think they are really meaning anything under 1.9. I'm not saying you can't get 1.0 but you're probably not working the setup very hard if you are, or you have a really big turbo that's very efficient in that specific range of operation, which probably wouldn't tow well.
    Last edited by JaegerWrenching; 12-18-2019 at 10:39 AM.

  4. #24
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    First off - the above last posted tune is garbage - while it did do better with light throttle, it sucked on the highway with heavier engine loads - really sucked...

    Secondly - after finding and using some different pids in the scanner on the tcm side, I was finally able to make some discoveries and advancements instead of just blindly making adjustments like I was... Would still really love to see things like what's available in a regular scan tool in hpt's scanner :/ I'll send in a request with some pids that I know is in another scanner and see what happens as soon as I get some time...

    One thing I almost ironed out today was cold start - for whatever reason - possibly because of the bad injectors - my truck had started surging badly only when put into gear and just started. Was like it had a monster cam in it... Didn't matter if I changed idle speed, fueling or anything else. This allowed me to discover that mode 9 is used for cold start turbo vane control - the turbo vane was ramping up and down when touching or trying to hold throttle in the 15 to 20mm areas - so smoothed a lot of that out, fixed idle fueling and idle speed at the same time... Still have to dial in the idle torque table as when it's hot it idles about 30rpms higher than what I would like it to be or rather higher than what's being commanded... Assume the extra torque from injection timing, rail pressure, turbo and so on are causing this...

    Injection timing - where it was fuel knocking before was when fuel usage was 15mm or less with very light throttle input - what I found, but didn't find the entirely correct solution for was that injection timing was going to +10 to +12 even though it's nowhere near that in any of the tables... During decel injection timing on "select" injectors/cylinders will go to +12ish, but this wasn't it - figured there has to be a torque table adder or multiplier somewhere that we don't have, so I limited injection timing in these select areas to +3 via soi max which allowed me to further discover I could increase timing in the regular tables... I do have some minor fuel knock at wot in the lower gears that pretty well goes away in the higher gears, so not too worried about it... Optimal injection timing at cruise seems to be 10 to 12...

    Pilot injection - if all your after is torque and power then get rid of it, but you will lose A LOT of fuel economy... I'm speculating that since this operating system doesn't define actual quantity for pilot - or at least we don't have access to it if it does - that if you get rid of pilot injection and put the fuel all into main injection that eoi gets moved way past tdc which makes the turbo spoil easily and aggressively but seems to waste fuel... Someone can correct me here if I'm wrong - always willing to learn I tried moving soi sooner to optimize this more, but still couldn't get the economy back... Pilot injection at idle/low fuel mass also seems to cause problems or at least lots of pilot does... Soots up a whole lot quicker and seems sluggish...

    I never could find any sort of back pressure to log for calculating BP ratio... I know Ford's use a bp sensor, but have never seen one on a GM - was hoping for some sort of built in logic like intake valve temp is for the gas burners, but never could find anything?

    This is the tune for now and until I get my injectors replaced I probably won't be making any other changes - I haven't done any regen testing on this one... Just 90some percent fixed the idle, dialed the trans in very close, dialed the turbo in really close and then did a minor 50 mile drive to get some rough fuel economy numbers - which right now staying under 65mph with varying hills, minor stop and go and speeds getting down into the 30's I was averaging 35.9mpg when I parked the truck... Don't know long term effects of the tune or if it will even work good in a truck with good injectors :/ Would think it should do better, but who knows If something jumps out to someone, let me know... Trans is a "little" rough at the getgo, but does a lot better after some learning - some may like it a little softer in the mid load ranges, but for now it works for me in all of the stop and go city, with hill and mountain driving thrown in...

    If anyone has one on a dyno, I'de like to know how It does
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  5. #25
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    Ok, so I know I said I wasn't going to make any changes until the injectors were replaced, but while I was driving up the mountain (a 2000ft elevation change in about 20minutes of super crooked and curvy roads) to the hospital where my dad has been, I found I had screwed up tow haul - this was right after posting the last tune... SOooo, went ahead and finished up the transmission, finished fixing the idle (I really really hated the OE idle - got worse with each consecutive OE update) and did some minor clean up on the engine side and verified today going back up the mountain that tow haul was good...

    Again, I don't know long term effects and haven't figured out which fuel mode is specifically for tow haul yet, so probably wouldn't set out towing a heavy load with it

    Trans shifting should be good for anyone - targeting 1500 to 2000 rpms window target to maintain for down and upshifting - only thing I don't particularly like is where it holds gear for a little longer than it should while holding constant throttle, engine increasing rpm and going down hill with very light load before upshifting - only thing I don't really like...

    I have gotten as good as 40mpg with light throttle flat highway and some going slower speeds 45 to 60 mph driving... Should get somewhere around 32 to 33 on higher load higher speed 70 to 80 mph driving... Good power, good torque... May melt or kill pistons for all I know - haven't fully tested...

    For anyone just copying and pasting make sure to use your speedo settings - mine were changed for the slightly oversized tires that were throwing mine off 1mph... Only mods on my truck are S&B cai and tires...
    Last edited by GHuggins; 12-26-2019 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Added speedo statement
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  6. #26
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    Does anyone happen to know how to figure crank angles for a firing injector on a diesel? Just trying to make sure what my 40 degree window is before I go any further. My last log was showing a pulse width of 1.523ms during a wot pull. Not sure on a diesel how to equate this to crank degrees...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  7. #27
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    Hey GHuggins

    Happy New Year by the way. I have had this link for a while hope it helps

    http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html

    So my understanding if you were say turning 3000 rpm than using this formula looks like 27.4 degrees. I am still working away on my tune when I have time.

    I did look at your tune impressive results. I am not a copy and paste guy do not learn anything by doing that right! I have been using it as reference. One question how did you figure out our the VGT table and I notice you closed it up in the lower mm3 and opened it up at higher values. If you could you please explain and why you made these changes...

  8. #28
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    Ahhh, so my math was right - I'm injecting fuel for roughly 33 degrees at peak rpms - I kept thinking the fuel quantity with pre-injection cycles would throw the figures off... Soooo, if 40 degrees is where you start melting pistons, I should still be plenty safe enough

    Something else I found really interesting was that Colorado's sold overseas "holden versions" were running almost identical fuel amounts stock to my very increased amount, but they run very very odd turbo settings with way more retarded injection timing...

    As for the vgt settings - I'll get back to this as I will be testing one more tune this week... Something that keeps causing me headaches is the background controls that we can't adjust such as the soi adder for light throttle or the vgt torque changing table that will change the vgt setting based on constant engine load "really wish I knew where that one was - it opens the vgt up to roughly 65 or 70 (another way I came up with my numbers) when the turbo is being choked down on hard mountain pulls under medium to light throttle for a sudden boost ramp :/ " Lots of R&D is how I came to those current tables - they don't make boost or wot power like the OE's one do, but they are great for light throttle - medium to light load torque... A combination of heavy load and light throttle economy tables are what I'm going to be trying next - hopefully can combine the two and optimize wot at the same time a little better in this one - picking my truck up from the new injector install in the morning, so will re-tweak from there...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  9. #29
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    That was a very good read and has some very well written and laid out info. That is a huge reason why these newer trucks have so many different injection configs based on temperature. It is important and they run very well out of the box considering what they are trying to accomplish. Ghiggins i think you're right about those tables, I have many days spent learning the Ford side of things and i learn more and more about the ECU's everyday. You should get into doing user defined and looking at .bin and XDF files to import your own tables into HPT. I'm currently working on it myself but If you data log enough you can find tables that overlay your data and decipher them. Form there you can then make appropriate changes to them and upload that to HPT via an XDF file through tuner pro.

  10. #30
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    I found quite a few of the missing tables in efi live that I'm going to request get added in hpt. I really really hope hpt doesn't or never has to do what all of the other tuning companies out there have done. Even efi live has lost a TON - they're almost as bad as sct now with what little you can do..... I've also found it interesting that some of the missing tables are in the euro version of our tunes already in hpt, but they haven't put them into the US version even though they have nothing to do with emissions?

    I would love to be able to do the hex, but I get lost reading about it much less doing it right now with everything else going on... I'm afraid the entire tuning industry is coming to this though...

    The read was extremely informative, but I didn't necessarily like how he said too much timing was bad and then you look at his timing map and it runs very quickly up into the mid 30's - most I've seen in any tune

    I've learned a lot about these babymax's messing with mine - learned a whole lot of bad things about how cheap their made mainly :/

    I've been reading a lot of the science studies into diesel timing, Nox, power and torque and so on too - enlightened me to why the OE's doing what they're doing. AND Gale's video's in regards to killing a duramax and duramax related videos of his have been really helpful especially on the limits of a diesel in general If the dealership can ever get my truck fixed and I decide to keep it, I'm going to look into possibly installing a couple of his IDash gauges...

    What brand of air/fuel gauge are you using for tuning? I personally love the AEM's especially with hpt, just wasn't sure if they would work good on a diesel?

    You've been extremely helpful too. Thank You for you help JaegerWrenching...
    Last edited by GHuggins; 01-12-2020 at 11:42 AM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  11. #31
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    What brand of air/fuel gauge are you using for tuning? I personally love the AEM's especially with hpt, just wasn't sure if they would work good on a diesel?
    Until this week, this would have been difficult. Diesel engines run really lean. I think up to around 5.0λ ( ~70AFR ). This is way out of the the Analog output range ( 0.58λ - 1.22λ) or the OBDII interface range of the 30-0334 ( 0λ- 2.0λ ). But... the new beta VCMScanner ( w/ Prolink ) supports the AEMNet CAN data interface for the 30-0300 and 30-0310. This interface supports a range of 0λ to 6.5λ. Which covers the diesel range nicely. I need to do a few experiments to verify everything.

    I THINK the the serial range goes to 99.9AFR / 9.99λ (if you adjust for the decimal point ) as well.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.mike View Post
    Until this week, this would have been difficult. Diesel engines run really lean. I think up to around 5.0λ ( ~70AFR ). This is way out of the the Analog output range ( 0.58λ - 1.22λ) or the OBDII interface range of the 30-0334 ( 0λ- 2.0λ ). But... the new beta VCMScanner ( w/ Prolink ) supports the AEMNet CAN data interface for the 30-0300 and 30-0310. This interface supports a range of 0λ to 6.5λ. Which covers the diesel range nicely. I need to do a few experiments to verify everything.

    I THINK the the serial range goes to 99.9AFR / 9.99λ (if you adjust for the decimal point ) as well.
    HOLY - Wow, you/hpt and AEM are doing it again Dr.Mike Now that's what I like to see Yes, I don't know about these newer ones, but the older diesel's could idle on a 100:1 air/fuel mix - no power, but they could do it... Well, I definitely know the setup I'll be going with now on the air/fuel...

    However, Do any of the digital AEM's show this lean of a reading on the gauge itself?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  13. #33
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    Do any of the digital AEM's show this lean of a reading on the gauge itself?
    Unfortunately, no. You would have to use O2% to display it. I guess I could do a Diesel re-FLASH mod to show AFR up to 99.99. I think they go " - - - -" as soon as the "needle" LEDs run out, around 22AFR. The modded units would still "bury" the needle at 22AFR/1.5-lambda, though. Unless you wanted to print your own face-plate.

  14. #34
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    I don't think any of us would mind the digital needle pegging out as long as the digital reading itself still showed the correct air/fuel... I was just worried that hpt's scanner was going to be the only way to know what was going on for those who wanted one permanently installed in the vehicle. Glad to see you can recal for this.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

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    Oh. Well, changing the "====" limit to 6.5λ, I know how to do

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    So just to clarify - is this something we can purchase through you Dr.Mike or do we purchase from AEM and then send the unit to you for reprogramming or will it be like the 30-0333's, where AEM will be offering your updated software that will show up to a 99.99 afr with one of their particular units?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

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    Depends on the demand. If there is enough demand, I'm sure the AEM guys will pick it up. I doubt that they would change the current 30-0300 to add a "dSL" vs. "GAS" mode. So, it would have to warrant being a new part number. In which case, they would, probably, make a new faceplate with a diesel-appropriate needle range.

    I can do a flash mod, like the original code that led to the 30-0333/30-0334. But, whether AEM decides to pick it up is up to them.

    It APPEARS to me, that, the 30-0312 AEMNet gauge will display the CAN output of a 30-0310 up to 3.27λ ( 48AFR ), with the needle maxing out at 1.37λ (20AFR )

  18. #38
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    So, which gauge would be best to purchase to send to you for the diesel mod?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    No Longer with passion performance auto for good reasons

  19. #39
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    The 30-0300 would be the gauge to use. You would need the Prolink to connect it to VCMScanner, since the OBDII interface runs out of steam at 2.0λ ( 29.4AFR ).

    I'll have to see how many people want the diesel mod before investing a bunch of time in the firmware patch.

    I'm not really set up to sell things.

  20. #40
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    I would pay to have you mod the AEM to read the diesel scale Dr.mike. Also GHuggins You're welcome for the help! Thank you for posting all your info on your truck and sharing your experience, that's how this fields grows and your info will teach others as time goes on.