Looking for some help/advice on E38 Idle

[Allen Vos]

I think the way you've been responding to critic and diverse opinion hasn't been great.

You've demonstrated to me a lack of initiative by not trying to blend your halving of the spark adaptive in the narrow rpm range with my suggestion of moving over the spark columns to retain high delta rpm correction. You just fired back my suggestion was terrible. No log, no follow up questions, no seeking of insight, no asking for my tune. Nada
.
By writing me off so quickly you come across to me as narrow minded and not able to easily deal with a wide spectrum of personalities. Are you a Nancy Pelosi fan?...

Let's see if you can get over your bias of me.

You're not taking advantage of your torque reserve by being a pussy on the large rpm deltas. I suggest your air model isn't quite there, albeit much closer then when you started.

First of all, the way you talk to and treat people on here that are trying to learn is completely inappropriate. Name calling? Really? Great way to win someone over who's already a bit frustrated with things.

Then you sit and criticize me on what you think I should be doing.

Buddy, I don't care how much you know or how much you think you know, your not going to get a positive response from anyone speaking the way you do, Which is exactly why you didn't get as you stated "No log, no follow up questions, no seeking of insight, no asking for my tune. Nada".

Why would anyone in the right mind respond to anyone that talks like that?

Yet here you are trying to justify your negative behavior and name calling again.

My guess is you think its completely ok to talk to people like that.


If you actually treated me with respect , you would find out I am far from narrow minded.

I just refuse to respond to people that think they can come on here or any forum for that matter and be an asshole.

It was already stated, you came off a little hard on this thread, so I doubt I'm the first person you've spoken to like this in general.

Now, being as I'm the one that needs help here and I can see you put some effort into posting my spark tables, So I'll bite here.


But first, A bit about me. I'm a licensed automotive technician for 20 plus years and have a great deal of experience with a lot of things.

Hp tuners and the Gen 4 strategies are not one of them, so I am eager to learn, hence the long posts and trying to be thorough leaving no stone unturned.


I am an individual who wants and needs to understand what I am doing and why, so its extremely hard for me to just change things because some one says so with not much of an explanation.

You have to understand as a new person to HP tuners, when I read so many posts and get different opinions its hard to know what to do and make the right choice, which in the end results in me trying a bazillion things out.


So like I said , Ill bite.

Now with regard to the spark tables you are talking about, I want to ask you, why are you focusing on that when I don't have a hunting idle?


Like I said earlier, I cut my tables in half and I get zero hunting at idle.

EdcMatL1 has indicated my throttle blade is opening causing my little blip at idle. Now I can see the integral air table is adding air into the motor which I believe is causing the blip.

Do you think the spark tables are causing my idle blip? I really feel its air flow rather than spark

However I am not 100% sure on this. Which is why I am here.

You also mention, higher RPM. First of all , I am only worried about the idle right now. I was going to get into more spark when I start tuning the car for regular driving and PE.

Its my understanding that the over and under speed tables are at idle only?


I have no issue trying whatever you guys suggest but lets keep things respectful here and If I need to do things a bit differently, I am more than open to constructive criticism.

Also know that I am an individual that likes to help people as well , so anything I learn on here, I will gladly pay it forward to others down the road that have similar issues.

[gtstorey]

Lets not forget who is trying to help who, also known as who is going out of their way to provide information to someone who needs it. You act like people on here owe you an explanation and that these people are paid technical support. You have some of the best tuners in the country weighing in on your problem that is a very basic modification. If their advice doesn't work, then you have problems that aren't tune related.

[hjtrbo]

The issue I and I think a few others are trying to express is..

usually fueling / bad idle timing setup is the cause of idle issue. But instead of taking the time to get those dialed in people jump into the PID side of the throttle control. Base Airflow has to be dialed in. But beyond that most of these guys are digging themselves in a hole patching a bad idle due to bad airflow models with PID tuning.

PID tuning is not exactly straight forward either. People are just guessing. Most people don't even know what diff eq or laplace transforms are.. Even if they do.. Most people aren't at that level in math. This was after calculus 3 for me.

Quite often idle issues are because the engine transients though a rich region of the VE table you don't see often in steady state operation, just in engine decel. Or they are trying to use a MAF with a huge cam, or they are trying to use narrowbands to tune fueling with a cam with a ton of overlap.

my advice is to iron out the basics before even thinking about touching the pid side of idle control.

Yes, same thing I've been trying to say for 3 pages just with less words.

Lol I assumed that went without saying, especially given that the VE was likely the root cause of the problem....base cal must be complete before idle, driveability, etc. That's definitely not under contention... Doesn't make me agree with a blanket statement to completely disregard certain idle controls though.

I still think you're wasting time chasing tables that don't really matter. Leave them all alone, return them to stock, dial in the primary tables and you shouldn't need to touch all the other stuff you're discussing.

judging by your pic the injector tip temp will be in play also like its just after a hot flash as its at coolant temps, looks like the trims may be trying to remove that fuel also, Allen Vos usually best to drive or something for about 10-15mins so everything settles down before assessing idle changes

It's been a while since you posted a log. How you going with the stuff edcmat wanted you to focus on?



Be good to get this stuff down



This large slope is not optimum, likely contributing




Increase your polling rate on throttle, spark & airflow PIDs in the scanner.

[GHuggins]

Couple of things to add here and it might be why you're going in circles with this as I'm not sure it's been pointed out, when you're modifying the VE table you need to try to keep things smooth but also carry corrections forward a little ways into the zones such as the idle rpm lower loads that Nathan has circled. That way these zones don't kick out your corrections being made and will help to keep corner transitional areas smooth. Doing so will help reduce phantom intermittent issues when you just happen to go through these areas.

Next. It looks like Nathan circled your tip temp being at 90 degrees. This is why it's important to dial in the tip temp table. This way fueling will stay close to right while you're getting into these hotter temperatures. It's also a good practice to ignore anything for 20 minutes even after having this dialed in before logging anything for corrections. You can look up rich after flash to make sure you aren't chasing your tail because of this.

Cringers VE tool and videos for it will be your friend.

[Cringer]

Cringers VE tool and videos for it will be your friend.

Speaking of...I released version 1.6 just now. No functionality changes, just some minor defect fixes and visual enhancements.

[LS ROB]

PE enabled @ idle?

[Cringer]

OK so here is the current tune and here is my original tune, check it out. I have no idea why percentage max and percentage brake show differently but they are in fact the same 2.31%.

I will have a log tomorrow night

Attachment 142370

Attachment 142371

Did you ever upload a log? If so, I missed it.

However in comparing the two files in this post, you have edited Engine > Airflow > Electronic Throttle > [ECM] 33030 - Desired Throttle Area - A

The description for this tables reads as follows:

Normal Mode Desired throttle area based on pedal position and RPM or VSS (pedal to throttle map). WARNING!!! Modify this table at OWN RISK. Incompatibility of this calibration with the vehicle TAC module calibration may render PCM permanently inoperable.

While restoring this table back to stock probably will not impact your current idle quest, I am going to suggest you revert it back and leave it alone.

[hjtrbo]

PE enabled @ idle?

Hmm, missing that. Can you point out what you see.
The TPS (effective area %, not tps as labelled) will keep it out.

[hjtrbo]

Did you ever upload a log? If so, I missed it.

While restoring this table back to stock probably will not impact your current idle quest, I am going to suggest you revert it back and leave it alone.

Has had some pretty big changes to it. Why'd you change this one AV? aka throttle controller?

[Allen Vos]

Wow man!! Looks like you dug right into that and found more shit messed up Lol

I'm not sure if you guys caught this but the car is in the garage in the middle of Canadian winter so driving it is not an option until spring.

So this would prolly explain the high air intake temps as everything is getting heat soaked. I have to live with that for now.

The VVE table that you are looking at is the one that Edcmat modified for me a while back in this post. I have not touched it since. I just assumed it was good enough to let the car idle.

One thing I was wondering about and it brings back memories when I was tuning my old mustang with a mega squirt system, I needed to make sure all the numbers in the idle area on the VE table were the same. For example if it idled at 800 rpm and 50 KPA, you would go in and add the same numbers at 600 and 1000 RPM and 40 and 60 KPA. That way if the idle jumped around a bit, It was still getting the same fueling and a more stable idle was the result.

Am I to set this VVE table the same way?

Also what do you mean by polling rate in reference to throttle, spark and airflow PIDS? I didn't quite understand that one

LTFT are off as well but I just assumed because of the lumpy camshaft it would not get a proper A/F reading at idle?

Before Edcmat modified the VVE table it would literally run and drown itself in fuel.






Lets just put that negative crap behind us. This has been a bit frustrating for me to say the least and maybe you guys are right, I could be my own worst problem here.

I have spent hours watching tuning videos and cruising the forums and I have maybe just overloaded my poor brain with different ideas from everyone and to be honest it can be confusing.

That being said, I really do appreciate the help, even if it doesn't seem like it at times.

I only have so much time in a day to play with this stuff and put to much pressure on myself to get things figured out and stress out too much over it.



I have logs I will post as well

[Allen Vos]

Did you ever upload a log? If so, I missed it.

However in comparing the two files in this post, you have edited Engine > Airflow > Electronic Throttle > [ECM] 33030 - Desired Throttle Area - A

The description for this tables reads as follows:


While restoring this table back to stock probably will not impact your current idle quest, I am going to suggest you revert it back and leave it alone.

Lol you caught that one eh?

Let me explain.

I hated the way the relationship between the accelerator pedal and the drive by wire throttle body, It felt mushy, lazy and unresponsive, which is what you don't want in a manual car.

I felt disconnected from the engine.

Changing this table basically made the accelerator pedal match the throttle body opening a bit better and makes for a much nicer responding throttle.

I spent a lot of time last summer doing this and many times it went into REP mode, but this is the most aggressive I can make it without setting REP.

The car is much more of a blast to drive this way and I am hoping I can keep this table the way it is.

Unless you tell me it will mess other things up?

I will say that the car ran amazing after this in stock form, so I figured I could just leave it this way with the new cam

[Allen Vos]

Has had some pretty big changes to it. Why'd you change this one AV? aka throttle controller?

Cringer had asked me the same thing. Check out my response to him

[Allen Vos]

Speaking of...I released version 1.6 just now. No functionality changes, just some minor defect fixes and visual enhancements.

Awesome man!!! I look forward to trying it out.

Looks like I will need it lol

[Allen Vos]

Couple of things to add here and it might be why you're going in circles with this as I'm not sure it's been pointed out, when you're modifying the VE table you need to try to keep things smooth but also carry corrections forward a little ways into the zones such as the idle rpm lower loads that Nathan has circled. That way these zones don't kick out your corrections being made and will help to keep corner transitional areas smooth. Doing so will help reduce phantom intermittent issues when you just happen to go through these areas.

Next. It looks like Nathan circled your tip temp being at 90 degrees. This is why it's important to dial in the tip temp table. This way fueling will stay close to right while you're getting into these hotter temperatures. It's also a good practice to ignore anything for 20 minutes even after having this dialed in before logging anything for corrections. You can look up rich after flash to make sure you aren't chasing your tail because of this.

Cringers VE tool and videos for it will be your friend.

Thank you for your response.

Apparently I have much to learn tuning a VVE table. I'm Definity going to use cringers tool for this.

I also remember watching a video on you tube from goat rope garage on VVE zones and making sure they get blended in properly.

He seems to know what he's talking about.

Do you guys think his info is of good quality?


Injector Tip Temp is a new one to me. What is the best way to go about and learn how to do this?

I had noticed the car doesn't run right for about 5 min or so after a reflash so I will need to be mindful of that.

[Allen Vos]

OK so I finally had a chance to get some logs here.

Here is the most current tune file. It is as stock as I could get it, with the exception of min airflow, startup airflow, idle spark over and under speed tables, base idle spark and of course the idle rpm tables where I brought the RPM up to 800 which is where the cam likes to idle.

Attachment 142394

Here are a few logs

Attachment 142391
Attachment 142392
Attachment 142393

The first one is quite long but its a cold startup without touching the throttle all the way up to operating temp.

I tried to make smaller logs as requested so I could show the little blip in the idle and did a small log with a couple hot starts.


I'm not sure what you guys think and this all may just come down to improper VVE tables not matching the MAF but what I can notice in the throttle blip after it comes down to 800 rpm it quickly rises to 900 rpm then takes it sweet ass time coming back down to 800 rpm

I did notice if I rev it up only a few hundred RPM it goes under the 800 RPM for a split second but if you rev it up to say 2000rpm it wont really drop below 800 rpm on the way down.


I've attached a pic of the idle blip log and circled the idle blip. I have also circled the spots where the MAF and VVE don't match up.

Attachment 142401

How does the integral air flow look to you guys?

You can see something is opening the throttle up on this little blip and I am assuming its added air flow and not spark?

One other thing I wanted to ask is the RPM comes up a bit higher than I would like on startup, cold or hot.

Is there a correct way to limit the RPM on a startup?

So there is everything I have. I hope that I have everything that everyone has requested from me.

Thank you everyone

[LS ROB]

Hmm, missing that. Can you point out what you see.
The TPS (effective area %, not tps as labelled) will keep it out.

I was looking at PE table @idle. I do see now that the delay is there under 5k. Carry on. lol

[TragicMike]

The last issue you described (after throttle blip) is most likely just Idle Min Airflow. One of the magic 3.

It might sound lame but seriously just start from stock.

Get injection timing close.
-- I think GHuggins explained this and Cringer has the tool and video
Get Idle Air nearly perfect.
-- you can log RPM error and watch the STOCK adaptive numbers to see how far off of desired idle you are
-- they should probably be disabled anyway if you follow the guide but keep an eye on them as you change things
-- you might have to adjust this multiple times as you go. And make sure you test it in park AND in gear.
-- don't wait until later to figure out your spark table.. at least get it in the ballpark. Otherwise it will change everything again.
Watch and set VVE at idle.
-- shift the whole curve up or at least be sure it increases "enough" from idle to the next few columns
-- might be a good idea to add like 5% to what you think it should be
Shift or Reduce adaptives only in the range that your cam likes to lope.
-- increase prop air error to the +/- of that range or close to it
-- reduce/shift spark in the same range ( all the tables)

At this point it should be good enough.
Then work on driving airflow and vve.

Also:
None of these guys are getting paid to help you.
Quite the opposite. They may be losing money by sharing.
So try not to act like a slighted customer unless you plan on tipping big.

[hjtrbo]

edcmat has done a good job. To follow up on TragicMike's solid tips.

Just looking at your idle blips purely from a gmve point of view at this stage. Shortly after the disturbance the maf airflow stabilises and can be trusted.


So you adjust this bit, its the area just below your idle area


Try sneaking half a gram off the min air flow.

And give your p/n underspeed adaptive spark some more authority. Something like this might work.

[Allen Vos]

The last issue you described (after throttle blip) is most likely just Idle Min Airflow. One of the magic 3.

It might sound lame but seriously just start from stock.

Get injection timing close.
-- I think GHuggins explained this and Cringer has the tool and video
Get Idle Air nearly perfect.
-- you can log RPM error and watch the STOCK adaptive numbers to see how far off of desired idle you are
-- they should probably be disabled anyway if you follow the guide but keep an eye on them as you change things
-- you might have to adjust this multiple times as you go. And make sure you test it in park AND in gear.
-- don't wait until later to figure out your spark table.. at least get it in the ballpark. Otherwise it will change everything again.
Watch and set VVE at idle.
-- shift the whole curve up or at least be sure it increases "enough" from idle to the next few columns
-- might be a good idea to add like 5% to what you think it should be
Shift or Reduce adaptives only in the range that your cam likes to lope.
-- increase prop air error to the +/- of that range or close to it
-- reduce/shift spark in the same range ( all the tables)

At this point it should be good enough.
Then work on driving airflow and vve.

Also:
None of these guys are getting paid to help you.
Quite the opposite. They may be losing money by sharing.
So try not to act like a slighted customer unless you plan on tipping big.

Ha ha No that doesn't sound lame at all. I'm just going through your checklist here and should clarify a few things as some of you may not know what has all been done.

SOIT was set up correctly with the help of cringer, well for at least the idle.

I followed a thread on here a while back to figure out minimum air flow and it had you turn all correction and followers off to find the Min air flow and I ended up with 10 g/s It will run at 9.5 g/s but stumbles a bit coming back to idle. If I set it to 9 G/s it stalls.

I was not able to get the RPM error logging correctly. I used RPM- target rpm for my math, or maybe it was vice versa. I'm not sure why but my numbers were in the thousands so I feel I didn't have something set up right.

If you have the MATH for that, I would love to get it from you.

As far as the spark goes, keep in mind I can not drive my car until spring due to Canadian winter so to be honest I only focused on Base idle spark at 18^.
from what I understand this is all that is needed to idle and the rest of the spark tables don't matter until I get heavy into driving , logging and tuning.
But please correct me If I'm wrong here.

My issue looks like its in the VVE table so yes, I will need to fix that up to fix that silly little idle blip.

I'm very curious when you mention , reduce or shift adaptatives and increase prop error +/- of the range that the cam lopes.

Care to elaborate more on this, or share any links you may have?

[Allen Vos]

edcmat has done a good job. To follow up on TragicMike's solid tips.

Just looking at your idle blips purely from a gmve point of view at this stage. Shortly after the disturbance the maf airflow stabilises and can be trusted.


So you adjust this bit, its the area just below your idle area


Try sneaking half a gram off the min air flow.

And give your p/n underspeed adaptive spark some more authority. Something like this might work.

Sweet Man!! Thanks for pointing out the VVE table being lean and needing some tweaking.

It all makes sense now the way you laid everything out with the chart vs time and the graphs.

As far as reducing minimum air flow, I have it set to 10 G/S. I can run it at 9.5 G/S but I found it fell below the target idle RPM by 50-75 rpm and then bounced back to target.

I have tried 9 G/S and the car just stalled.

I should prolly re try setting min air flow once I get the VVE table fixed as that may be causing that issue too.


I will also give your under speed spark table a try.

I know that you had mentioned previously that you weren't fond of my spark over and under speed spark tables, but I wanted to ask you, How did the spark over and under speed look on the log to you?

The car does idle pretty nice and there's no real surging or oscillation's , with the exception of the idle blip thing but that's in the VVE table, so I feel spark over and under speed must be pretty close.