Speed Density Turbo Tune Timing going (-) at 2-3k RPM

[Fostertyler]

Hello, I'm finally getting enough progress with my current build and tune to feel comfortable with posting. I'm running into a wall and believe its torque management pulling timing once i begin to build boost. I know my VVE Tables need work but the truck is just a dog.
Refreshed 6.0l LY6 in a 07 GMC Envoy Denali (LS Typhoon build) E67 pcm, LS9 Cam, 823 Heads, 7875 Turbo, Lingefelter in-tank Fuel Pump. Still the stock A4 trans.
Flow match Fuel Injector Connector Deka 80's with data sheet input, NGK BPR7E plugs gapped to 0.022. All TCS Patches have been applied by Write Entire.

I've scaled fueling for injectors by 0.5, Doubled Stoich, and Halved IVT AFR term. Truck ran much better after mult. the Torque Coeff -EQ Ratio table by 0.5. I still feel there is something I've left out or overlooked. Been searching for a few days but no immediate solutions apparent. Truck is much more responsive when manually selecting gears.

Any Ideas? All modifications to stock file has been documented in Tune Details. I've tried to group modifications by Tab.

Thanks!

TCS Patch 1 2 torque Mgmt 6.11.2024eq ratio 0.5.hpt
6.11.2024 to cheer- fuel cut lunge45rd.hpl

[blindsquirrel]

Can you please post a screenshot of your VVE table? There are some changes that do not get changed in the tune file, but rather in each user's editor and don't carry across when looking at someone else's file.

Before anything else, is this meant to have no narrowband O2s/no closed loop, ever?

[Fostertyler]

Yes, I plan on running MAFless, open loop. Would applying the custom 2bar OS be advisable in this situation/novice tuner? Will get pic of table soon.

Thanks,

Can you please post a screenshot of your VVE table? There are some changes that do not get changed in the tune file, but rather in each user's editor and don't carry across when looking at someone else's file.

Before anything else, is this meant to have no narrowband O2s/no closed loop, ever?

[blindsquirrel]

MAFless and open loop are two unrelated things, just want to make sure you aren't confusing/conflating the two. Closed loop speed density works just fine. OL/CL has nothing at all to do with the MAF.

[Fostertyler]

At this point I still have the narrow band o2’s on the car but I believe I have them disabled to dial in vve. From what I’ve read the torque calculations is dependent on airflow. Going MAFless will affect these calculations and is pulling timing?

[edcmat-l1]

You know you can add pids like torque management timing, IAT timing, etc., right? Then you wouldn't have to try and guess what's pulling timing.

In this case though it's pretty easy to figure out.

In the screen shot at 6:24 min in the log, you're at 5000 rpm roughly, 135 Kpa, 1.5 g cyl. airmass, and 106* IAT.

If you go to your corresponding timing tables you'll see you're commanding 9 degrees of timing in your last row, and you're pulling 5 degrees of timing in your IAT table at 104* IAT.

timing.jpg

timing 2.jpg

[blindsquirrel]

And those timing tables are 100% stock, despite what it might say in the Notes. The factory tune has spark timing neutered above a certain airmass, as a form of power limit. It needs to carry decent spark all the way out as far as you expect it to go in the map.

Power Enrich settings, delays and all, are also still stock. A lot of bad shit can happen with boost and double the stock HP in the 5 seconds it's waiting to enable PE. TPS is still 87%. Still has the anemic ramp-in rate. This is dangerous.

Turn the upstream O2s back on, put it back in closed loop, and tune the non-PE/non-boost regions using the trims, like a sane person. Save the wideband for when it goes open loop in PE and the narrowbands/trims are no longer being used.

Yes, the 2-bar OS would be better. There are threads here about converting the VVE over to the format used by the non-virtual VE tables.

[Fostertyler]

Thank you for the sanity check ��. this is what I’m after. Thanks

[blindsquirrel]

I was hesitant, because if you had been following advice from others that'd convinced you permanent open loop and no O2s was the hot ticket, I wasn't going to waste my time. Once someone is that far gone they can rarely be brought back.

[Fostertyler]

Thank you for taking the time to help. I?ve been reading advice from others and only now receiving it directly.
Just so I?m tracking correctly - in the next few days I?ll be turning on narrow band o2?s, dialing in non-boost vve, (or potentially going to 2bar OS), increasing PE ramp in, adding a little positive spark through the table,
Anything else?

[JayRolla]

Thank you for taking the time to help. I?ve been reading advice from others and only now receiving it directly.
Just so I?m tracking correctly - in the next few days I?ll be turning on narrow band o2?s, dialing in non-boost vve, (or potentially going to 2bar OS), increasing PE ramp in, adding a little positive spark through the table,
Anything else?

First off start logging a lot more PID's. The more the better. Anything timing and knock related.

I recommend running a MAF if possible. Blended tunes IMO is the way to go.

There are ways to tune MAF/VVE at the same time. Silversurfer77(Cringer) on youtube has some good videos on how. Or you can do it the old school way. Turn on narrowbands, disabled LTFT, DFCO, COT, use Bank 1+2 STFT numbers, copy paste multiply by half into VVE table, hand smooth and get STFT is within 5%. I would zero out the Offset vs Inj Temp table till your done tuning as that can cause a rich after reflash. Always drive at least 15 min before gathering data. Once done turn DFCO back on, COT if you have cats and repopulate the offset vs inj table.

I would zero out the IAT timing table up to at least 122* or higher. My stock LSA tune advances timing all the way to 130* and doesn't start to pull timing till 149*. I attached a photo for reference.

The stock timing maps on your truck are very conservative. I would throw in maybe 5* timing in from .72 and up and interpolate from .60-.80 to smooth it out. Attached a photo of how I would maybe modify your timing table to start. Make sure your logging knock retard and watching AFR to be safe. Not sure what fuel and how much boost you are running. Maybe max timing up to 12* instead of 15 like I have it to start. For reference with my supercharger I run 18* timing with zero knock at 12psi and .77 lambda on 91 octane.

[blindsquirrel]

I assume the IAT is relocated since the MAF is gone; where is it, in the intake tube or in the manifold itself? IAT filter & bias need changing depending on where it is now.

[Fostertyler]

IAT is in the intake manifold -sloppy mechanics style.

[blindsquirrel]

Zero out 13001, all 1's in 13002.

[blindsquirrel]

Probably don't want to hear this, but LS9 cam + turbo is likely the best of all possible combos if you were looking to make it soft and laggy down low. If you wanted it to do something other than that, ditch the PD blower cam.

[Fostertyler]

Probably don't want to hear this, but LS9 cam + turbo is likely the best of all possible combos if you were looking to make it soft and laggy down low. If you wanted it to do something other than that, ditch the PD blower cam.

I didn?t want something too radical. I have a SpeedInc TU1 that may get thrown in if it becomes an issue. I don?t have a massive power goal with this. Also, the LS9 cam was $140 from Summit 🤣..

[blindsquirrel]

I know the price, it's just that cam was made specific for a PD blower that makes instant boost as soon as the throttle even thinks of opening and doesn't need more bottom end (it would just spin or break shit and the warranty dep't gets upset when that happens), but the smallish blower does run out of steam at the top. Your situation is the exact opposite - bottom end is what makes exhaust volume that's needed to spool the turbo. It's not about more power or less power, it's about what makes the turbo light off.

[Fostertyler]

Thank you all for the help. I’ve made the changes you all have suggested but have run into issues with o2 sensor placement with my configuration. I constructed a crossover pipe with the existing stock exhaust which is similar to the hooker header manifold and crossover for single turbo application. Passenger side bank is ‘upstream’ of the passenger side head. What would you suggest for relocating that o2? I can drill and tap (or weld a bung) into the passenger exhaust manifold right before the turbo. I’m worried this will just melt the o2. I’ve also read that others have had success placing the narrow band on the down pipe and combining the signal. Any other options? I’d prefer to run it closed loop SD.
Thanks