Need help with hitting some type of limit on 2022 Redeye please ..Yes Ive Searched..

[WIKDZ]

2022 Redeye A8 Mods are:
Titan2 camshaft locked out
Longtube headers full OR exhaust
Fore Triple pump setup
ID1700 injectors
Ported kong stock blower w 108mm Kong TB 10% lower 2.85 Upper
MM Catch can
Ill attach last tune and log. Ive changed so many things gone back to start etc so some things may be whacky in tune bc of making changes trying to figure out. ANY direction would be great and would be willing to pay for some insight as I have searched countless places before posting. I like to figure out issues on my own and love the challenge but this one has me frustrated. Car is on E85. If you look at the log youll see it hits some type of limiter at 5500rpm and opens the bypass valve. Makes good power till then about 900hp 960tq on Mustang dyno.

Hellcat Log 5500limit.hpl2022 Hellcat Redeye ECU TCU Approach Limit V33.1..hpt

Let me know if you have any other questions and I appreciate any guidance! thank you.

[MadhousePerformance]

from what i see on your log im seeing that the fuel system should be higher in fuel pressure. look over your log it sits at 65 psi rail pressure. I Believe in my experience the pressure should be around 80+ psi. so a good indicator of that is also the fact that the AFR is reading mid to high 12 AFR should be a little richer then that so its cutting out due to fuel not getting in it. There are guys here a lot more knowledgeable then me that will look at your file over and tell you what is going on with it.

[JoshCP527]

Bypass dumping is a few thing issue. Ported snouts at least from the early days cut away too much from the tops sensor oring sealing area. The logs I don't think would show it but leaks would do this also on the hellcat or low trq ECU. 4.5s were notorious for just leaks from installs the ones I saw. Then you have the injector pw limit table that would dump boost usually only an issue on reg hc as their internal tank regulator is 80 psi vs 110 on the red-eye demon stuff. Then we get to the demon red-eye max mapped trq limit around 1050 or so on the actual trq pid would bleed boost once hit. If you did full pulls would dip and come back. All fixable. The last one also was not seen much in the low trq ecus as even heavily modified it just wouldn't calculate out to that limit. The demon is why all the iat ect imat and the 4th temp table showed up a little after the demon came out. But the latter is tune related. All of this also gets worse with colder temps. When you learn the trq mapping it makes sense.

[WIKDZ]

Thank you for the replies guys! I have the regulator set on that log, I have tried running it boost referenced and did the same thing. Should I set the fuel pressure Higher? on the torque side it only shows around 680 or am I looking in the wrong place? Assuming it also adds torque losses, do you think that is what it is hitting ? so I need to tweak them to show lower power? on the boost side it holds 22psi the whole time it seems like then around 100lbmin flow (5500ish) it cuts power feels like a rev limiter. its a very sudden loss in power. Ill be back on the dyno tomorrow if you guys have any ideas for me to try thanks again

[ChuckieD]

Did you find out what was commanding the bypass to open? My bypass opened at 190 MPH where I flatlined for 5 seconds thru the mile. People saying the valve is pushed open by boost. Boost does not act to open the valve but it would shoot a code anyway if commanded and actual positions didn't match. 80 PSI fuel and .83 lambda. I had no problems on dyno runs over 200 MPH making 1025 Hp. Have gone 209 in the mile + 1.5 seconds when I stayed in it a bit long without encountering this. Throttle torque source went to ESP after boost/torque dropped. Tried to attach log if anyone is following along yet.

1 st run.hpl

[LilSick]

you are answering your question in the asking

ESP engaged

it pulled 30 degrees of timing and opened the bypass


*it woulda fell on its face whether that bypassed opened or not...

15 deg ATDC will not make any power

[ChuckieD]

Thanks Don,

Are you saying I am retarded? (joke)

Spark was 14.5 BTDC.
Same as a dyno run @ 918 HP the week before.
Power did not flatten out on the dyno run.
Drove the dyno over 200 mph and shifted into 7th before the tech got out of it.
18 BTDC is my normal WOT table value with 21 psi boost.
This tune pulled 4 degrees from that in preparation for a 200 shot N2O run.

Track mode, traction control off, no power drop occurred when I spun halfway through 5th gear and all 4 wheels are on the ground.

What tripped ESP then?
It tripped after boost/torque started down.
Looks more like a response rather than a cause.

I don't have bypass valve parameters logged, was not expecting to chase such basic stuff.
maybe bypass is opening uncommanded and the mismatch trips the ESP.
Chicken or egg?

I am not satisfied just replacing the valve.
I also don't think the people claiming to have a better valve are the answer.
There looks to be similar forum topics, tuners and hardware involvement back to 2016.

I have the valve uninstalled but wired and a bypass plug installed in its place.
Will be doing some tests to see what it takes to force the valve open.

I want to find the smoking gun in the hardware or tune.
The entry fee and trip to the mile makes it too costly to rely on hopium.

Regards,
Chuck

[LilSick]

you did not post the tune for me to check... just a log

what you are suggesting and what the log shows do not coincide

[ChuckieD]

Don,

The parameter at -15 % is Short Term Fuel Trim (Orange)
Is that what you are referring to as spark at 15 ATDC?
Actual Spark is the yellow line.


@ 7:35:42.123
Throttle torque source = Pedal
Speed flattens
Torque spikes lower
Pressure ratio 2.35
Spark 14 BTDC


@ 7:35:43:076
Throttle torque source changes to ESP
Pressure ratio 1.63
Spark 13.5 BTDC

If ESP originated the event but took a second to post, what triggered ESP?
I don't think boost pressure can push the bypass valve open, but the data coincides with that scenario.
I was hoping to find someone that understands this problem and knows how to solve it.
I would be glad to share my tune and pay for their knowledge/tune/time if it is a software thing.

Will test the valve to see if it can be forced open, what codes it sets, or if it breaks first.
If that doesn't identify root cause I still need to find that help on the software side.

Regards,
Chuck

[LilSick]

no, i set up that layout myself

i know what pid's are on it and what they represent

i will pm you my number

gimme a call if you want me to explain what i am seeing

you know, while we are both looking at the log...

there is a lot that happens in-between 7:38.5 where it starts to flatline and 4 seconds later when you lift

[DodgeBoy_8HP]

Quite interesting situation.

Per log, issue started at 07:37:492.
At 07:38:381 you started feeling the issue.
At 07:42:420 you lifted (spark dropped from +13 to -14).

Another point:
At 08:07:841 does not look right either...

Also, on transmission side, looks like a lot of flare is going on - your transmission tune can also have some tune done.

[ChuckieD]

DodgeBoy_8HP,

Thanks for taking a look.
We see the same thing.
I was using the timescale that started at 07:28:03.763, from when data logger was powered up, not 0:0:0.000 from when logging was initiated.

Yes, spark drops to 15 ATDC when I get out of it.
It was running at 14 BTDC as I explained above.

ESP trips a second after speed flattens.
Traction control is off.
It didn't trip when I spun in 5th.
There is just a small amount of rpm bobble showing.
The car and the wheels were pointed in the right direction and takeoff speed is closer to 350 MPH for this pig.
Why does ESP trip?

The shift RPM is 6700.
Shift was commanded at 6749 RPM.
Flare to 6757 RPM is not excessive esp with the dynamic nature of things at the time.
The trans output shaft is following the engine RPM excursion.
Amazing that it shifts in .5 second from command to declaring engagement, and half of that time is thinking vs shifting.
With transmission torque management enabled, the only way to go.

Anyway, still looking for the smoking gun.

Regards,
Chuck

[DodgeBoy_8HP]

DodgeBoy_8HP,

Thanks for taking a look.
We see the same thing.
I was using the timescale that started at 07:28:03.763, from when data logger was powered up, not 0:0:0.000 from when logging was initiated.

Yes, spark drops to 15 ATDC when I get out of it.
It was running at 14 BTDC as I explained above.

ESP trips a second after speed flattens.
Traction control is off.
It didn't trip when I spun in 5th.
There is just a small amount of rpm bobble showing.
The car and the wheels were pointed in the right direction and takeoff speed is closer to 350 MPH for this pig.
Why does ESP trip?

The shift RPM is 6700.
Shift was commanded at 6749 RPM.
Flare to 6757 RPM is not excessive esp with the dynamic nature of things at the time.
The trans output shaft is following the engine RPM excursion.
Amazing that it shifts in .5 second from command to declaring engagement, and half of that time is thinking vs shifting.
With transmission torque management enabled, the only way to go.

Anyway, still looking for the smoking gun.

Regards,
Chuck

Do you mind sharing the tune? If not here, via email is fine: [email protected]

This way I can support in a proper way

[LilSick]

Per log, issue started at 07:37:492.
At 07:38:381 you started feeling the issue."

aircharge starts to fall off at 7:37.4 - i would think he would feel that?


add pid 2357 and 2358 and log another hit

[ChuckieD]

Pressure ratio and spark start dropping, lambda starts climbing at 07:37.4, start of event.
Torque drops and speed flattens at 07:38.4, felt that.
Throttle Torque Source switches from Pedal to ESP at 7:39.4.

It does not appear ESP commanded the pullback.

If I had bypass position I would have the smoking gun I am looking for.
The problem did not show during the dozen street runs I made to 170 MPH.
Nor did it show up during the 5 dyno pulls over 200 MPH.
I don't see it until I am 9 seconds into 6th gear at 190 MPH.
The opportunities to log this data does not come around often.
That is why I need to determine root cause with the data I have, not what I wish I had.

I don't have any problem sharing my tune.
I was not expecting a deep dive into the tune.
Moreso experience with what could cause ESP to be tripped if not the valve forced open.

Until I can find a solid software cause I am working on a bypass valve test rig to see if it can weaken and be forced open.
Maybe it takes more time than on the shorter dyno and street runs.
6700_ 456_codes_4 deg 10082024.hpt

Chuck

[LilSick]

[37846] engine > tq mgmt > general > auto trans mgmt > fuel shut off overide disable

yers is set to 6200

i raise that with the raised shift points in my tunes

[ChuckieD]

LilSick,

Hmmm.
The flat was around 6200 RPM.

This was not a fuel shutoff though., had .9 lambda before I got out of it.
Fuel was backing off with PR at the initiation but .9 lambda before I got out of it.
Had not experienced this with many previous 6500 RPM runs.
Made a dozen street runs with 6700 RPM without experiencing this.
Made 5 dyno runs to 6500 (manual mode limit) without experiencing this.

I am thinking if this is a programed limit the issue would be more consistent.
Pointing again to a hardware problem.
Been to the RPM, boost, speed without occurrence.
I suspect it may weaken over time while the servo motor is being held in the closed position.
Not boost pressure pushing it open, need a long WOT run.
Valve opens, boost drops and ESP is tripped.

Amazon is delivering the little torque meter, amp meter, 5-sided external wrench to couple with the valve shaft, Pulse width modulation driver and a pocket oscilloscope to verify PWM input.
Amazing, around $100 for all. At a nickel an hour racer's rate it won't take much to get some data.
Going to find out if/when this valve gives up, failure mode and error codes if/when it does.

Regards,
Chuck

[Hemituna]

Try putting the supercharger flow table (45556) back to stock numbers.
This usually will solve this issue, its generally not a faulty bypass valve...as valve will pop a code if it is unable to maintain desired postion.
I see this all the time, - stupid big numbers in that table (and some others) cause the calculated airflow to go crazy.
The pcm will let you get away with it sometimes (quick wot pull).
But eventually it wants the numbers to be closer to desired airflow.
Look at that log at around 7.39, just as it occurs. Actual airflow (calculated) is nearly double the Desired airflow.
PCM then opens bypass until Actual airflow comes back near the Desired airflow (bye bye boost and power) just as it should do.
When tuning these properly, you want the tq numbers (desired/actual) to line-up closely and also the airflow numbers (desired/actual) to be as close as practical.
Keep the numbers small, only increase what you have to as 1 thing affects 3 other things.
If you make numbers big, you hit limits all the time (some that cant be raised).
So better to fly under the radar, and dont tell the nanny PCM about all this amazing power you are making....

[ChuckieD]

Hemituna,

Thank you. That sounds right.

I have not found any problem with the valve.
Boost does not push it open and if you force it open or briefly short some leads probing with a volt meter it immediately fails open and shoots a code.

I do not know why the table would be changed from stock.
A tuner did it, I was not aware of it.
It is a calculable value based on displacement/RPM/PR.
No reason to increase the table values I can think of.

A concern I have is that the table only goes to 6200 RPM and 1,83 PR.
Seems like it should be extended to cover up to 6700 RPM and 2.5 PR.
While poking around I found ECM14064 Peak Airflow WOT that only goes to 6200 RPM and 4424 lb/min.
Also found ECM37844 tq limit per gear table to have 3 cells at 30/35/40 MPH with low values that I now suspect causes a limp mode under partial acceleration in default drive mode.

I am also interested in calibrating the engine torque calculation with dyno results if that is possible.

Will PM to arrange your support if you will continue helping me with this.

Thank you very much,
Chuck

[HaasExp]

A concern I have is that the table only goes to 6200 RPM and 1,83 PR.
Seems like it should be extended to cover up to 6700 RPM and 2.5 PR.

Table axis's can and should be scaled to suit your current setup. Rescaling tables should be part of the tuning process.